Do you think this is a double negative? (1 Viewer)

[Ahsoka]

“I have neither Itzy albums, nor Shinee albums”

In this case the two negatives would be neither and nor. I’ve seen arguments saying that it’s not a double negative because it’s correct, and that sounds a bit silly. Are you going to tell students, “English doesn’t allow double negatives. The way you tell if a sentence has double negatives is if there’s multiple negatives and the sentence is wrong”. Yeah very helpful. Just know what’s wrong, and then you’ll be able to tell if it’s right. We really need school letting us know that things that are right aren’t wrong and vice versa. Otherwise we’d never realize

 

[mysteric]

honestly I’ve only ever thought of it as the negative version of either or

 

[Ahsoka]

honestly I’ve only ever thought of it as the negative version of either or

I could see that, but it seems to me that if they want to stick with the no double negatives rule that is generally touted it would become “I want neither this or that”, which sounds so incredibly awkward imo. It seems to me that neither nor just maybe just somehow survived the shift into only one negation, and continues to use negative concord like older English did. But until today I never even noticed the double negation somehow, I just went with it.

 

[mysteric]

honestly neither or does sound more consistent but it’s probably just convention at this point making it sound weird
the evolution of language is weird

 

[snsd2beg]

Nor is my personal exception to the double negative due to how awkward the alternative is

 

[athenaaa]

I would assume this means that you don’t have either SHINee or Itzy albums. Double negatives has always confused me

 

[Kataphract]

The neither and nor operates their negativity on two separate but related items. To me, it does not constitute double negativity.

I will say that English with these rules is absolute BS. Do these "no-no's" with skill, though.

 

[Selfmate]

my understanding is that it's not

I was taught to use either and or
and thus neither nor was the opposite

the nor is just the neither version of "or" - it is in and of itself not a negative since it cannot be used on its own - kind of like "a" and "an"

try to think of a situation where the word nor is used to the exclusion of neither

 

[Ahsoka]

I would assume this means that you don’t have either SHINee or Itzy albums. Double negatives has always confused me

I agree they could be confusing, but out in the wild I have never met one that was that confusing. Maybe because people use them less, but like in the well known meme “Ain’t nobody got time for that” I’ve never encountered anyone who showed any confusion as to what that means. If the kind of examples that were used when teaching double negation suddenly started to be used out of nowhere (like “we didn’t not want pie”), then I do agree it would be confusing.

 

[Ahsoka]

The neither and nor operates their negativity on two separate but related items. To me, it does not constitute double negativity.

I will say that English with these rules is absolute BS. Do these "no-no's" with skill, though.

They’re separate clauses, but the first part of the phrase is essential to the understanding of the second part. So while I would agree that the conjunction nature of nor is less confusing that negative concord type double negatives, maybe because of its acceptance, it still seems to me like there’s two separate negations for one sentence, particularly as the second part isn’t an independent clause of its own. Making it a double negative. If you consider the conjunction nature to change that maybe, but I definitely don’t recall it being taught to us as “no double negatives unless you use a negative conjunctions” or it ever being pointed out anywhere in relation to that rule, which I guess is the point here

 

[Ahsoka]

my understanding is that it's not

I was taught to use either and or
and thus neither nor was the opposite

the nor is just the neither version of "or" - it is in and of itself not a negative since it cannot be used on its own - kind of like "a" and "an"

try to think of a situation where the word nor is used to the exclusion of neither

It isn’t, but I wasn’t looking for a double negative that isn’t commonly accepted in English, I specially brought it up because the usage of neither nor isn’t seen as a situation where they work against each other and are therefore misunderstood. But I still don’t think it isn’t an example of a double negative, it seems like a correct example of a double negative due to exception. I’m not seeing how nor isn’t a negative though. Using what you say, wouldn’t didn’t or wouldn’t be not negatives because you can’t use them on their own? Unless you mean that it’s a conjunction? In which case I agree and that’s probably why it is accepted as usage (though not everyone agrees it’s accepted), due to being less inherently misunderstood as adding random negatives without anyone being on board and therefore not being understood. But I still feel like it’s not two negatives because the second isn’t completely standalone and depends on the first clause. If it were two independent clauses I wouldn’t consider it a double negative though, in an example like, “I didn’t want to ski, but I didn’t want to snowboard either.”, where didn’t and didn’t are parts of 2 independent clauses.

And I do know this is splitting hairs, I just didn’t like English class in school So I’m looking for more reasons to complain about it

Also I was reading through the post to check for typos when I realized I said “but I still don’t think it isn’t an example of a double negative” which currently seems like a clear double negative. Or maybe I’m too sleepy and missing something there. One of the two

 

[Selfmate]

It isn’t, but I wasn’t looking for a double negative that isn’t commonly accepted in English, I specially brought it up because the usage of neither nor isn’t seen as a situation where they work against each other and are therefore misunderstood. But I still don’t think it isn’t an example of a double negative, it seems like a correct example of a double negative due to exception. I’m not seeing how nor isn’t a negative though. Using what you say, wouldn’t didn’t or wouldn’t be not negatives because you can’t use them on their own? Unless you mean that it’s a conjunction? In which case I agree and that’s probably why it is accepted as usage (though not everyone agrees it’s accepted), due to being less inherently misunderstood as adding random negatives without anyone being on board and therefore not being understood. But I still feel like it’s not two negatives because the second isn’t completely standalone and depends on the first clause. If it were two independent clauses I wouldn’t consider it a double negative though, in an example like, “I didn’t want to ski, but I didn’t want to snowboard either.”, where didn’t and didn’t are parts of 2 independent clauses.

And I do know this is splitting hairs, I just didn’t like English class in school So I’m looking for more reasons to complain about it

Also I was reading through the post to check for typos when I realized I said “but I still don’t think it isn’t an example of a double negative” which currently seems like a clear double negative. Or maybe I’m too sleepy and missing something there. One of the two

"but I wasn’t looking for a double negative that isn’t commonly accepted in English," - talk about double negatives VIKKI!!!!

in regards to the bolded part - you cannot use nor by itself without first using a negative

in regards to wouldn't didn't etc - of course they can be used as separate words - I didn't eat that sandwich I used the word didn't on it's own. You can't have a phrase/sentence with "Nor did I eat that Sandwich" - it wouldn't make sense as a sentence

I ate neither the hamburger NOR the sandwich
I didn't eat your sandwich - Nor did I

the nor has to accompany something else that is negative in nature

 

[Ahsoka]

"but I wasn’t looking for a double negative that isn’t commonly accepted in English," - talk about double negatives VIKKI!!!!

in regards to the bolded part - you cannot use nor by itself without first using a negative

in regards to wouldn't didn't etc - of course they can be used as separate words - I didn't eat that sandwich I used the word didn't on it's own. You can't have a phrase/sentence with "Nor did I eat that Sandwich" - it wouldn't make sense as a sentence

I ate neither the hamburger NOR the sandwich
I didn't eat your sandwich - Nor did I

the nor has to accompany something else that is negative in nature

It does always follow negatives but how does that not make it negative? What is it if not the negation of or? Would it be unclear to say “I don’t like this or that?” In these cases or and nor give the same purpose, but I’m just not seeing what nor is if not the negative of or, despite not being a perfect negative match. What it looks like to me is that the nor is doing a similar role as is found in negative concord, where multiple negatives are used to reinforce the negation, rather than cancel it out. Difference being is that in those languages where it’s standard, multiple negatives are common with all kinds of negatives in order to reinforce negation, while in English that was mostly phased out starting in the 18th century. But to me this still doesn’t mean that nor isn’t a negation of or, it’s just an exception that plays a role like the negative concord that existed in older English. :suspepe:

 

[Selfmate]

It does always follow negatives but how does that not make it negative? What is it if not the negation of or? Would it be unclear to say “I don’t like this or that?” In these cases or and nor give the same purpose, but I’m just not seeing what nor is if not the negative of or, despite not being a perfect negative match. What it looks like to me is that the nor is doing a similar role as is found in negative concord, where multiple negatives are used to reinforce the negation, rather than cancel it out. Difference being is that in those languages where it’s standard, multiple negatives are common with all kinds of negatives in order to reinforce negation, while in English that was mostly phased out starting in the 18th century. But to me this still doesn’t mean that nor isn’t a negation of or, it’s just an exception that plays a role like the negative concord that existed in older English. :suspepe:

bolded part - it's more like the use of the words "a" and "an" I think - they both have the same meaning but one is used before a vowel and the other consonant

I think what you are focused on - the double negative part whereas in fact it is a grammatical issue

Like you can't say I like neither apples or bananas (well you could but it would be grammatically incorrect) - "I like neither apples or bananas" and "I like neither apples ror bananas" has exactly the same meaning

 

[Ahsoka]

bolded part - it's more like the use of the words "a" and "an" I think - they both have the same meaning but one is used before a vowel and the other consonant

I think what you are focused on - the double negative part whereas in fact it is a grammatical issue

Like you can't say I like neither apples or bananas (well you could but it would be grammatically incorrect) - "I like neither apples or bananas" and "I like neither apples ror bananas" has exactly the same meaning

I don’t think they do have the same meaning though. If you use or, you’re saying that only one of the statements is true, and the other ones are not true (generally). If you use nor, you’re saying that the negative statement explicitly applies to all of the subjects listed, not only one.

As for the grammatical part of it, Marriam Webster online specifically states that neither used with or is not grammatically incorrect, it’s just unusual. Idk what other sources say, I wasn’t looking for that specifically, but to them it’s not a grammar thing. And even if it is, it doesn’t feel like most people know or care. I guess it may sound weird given that this thread is about grammar, but the difference here is that no double negatives is accepted as a rule for common speech and formal writing, while the rule about no combining neither and or hasn’t made its way to as big of a populous. Therefore, it’s not a de facto grammatical rule, and here I’m specifically targeting de facto grammar rules that actually oppose common speech of people, if that makes sense.

 

[Selfmate]

I don’t think they do have the same meaning though. If you use or, you’re saying that only one of the statements is true, and the other ones are not true (generally). If you use nor, you’re saying that the negative statement explicitly applies to all of the subjects listed, not only one.

As for the grammatical part of it, Marriam Webster online specifically states that neither used with or is not grammatically incorrect, it’s just unusual. Idk what other sources say, I wasn’t looking for that specifically, but to them it’s not a grammar thing. And even if it is, it doesn’t feel like most people know or care. I guess it may sound weird given that this thread is about grammar, but the difference here is that no double negatives is accepted as a rule for common speech and formal writing, while the rule about no combining neither and or hasn’t made its way to as big of a populous. Therefore, it’s not a de facto grammatical rule, and here I’m specifically targeting de facto grammar rules that actually oppose common speech of people, if that makes sense.

yes but specifically we are referring to the use of the words or/nor after the user of the word neither/either in this specific context...not a stand alone word

I'm pretty sure everybody if you said - I like neither apples or/nor bananas would understand you dislike both there can be no other interpretation of the given words

but (bolded part) the issue remains " is nor in the negative in the first place" - like I said nor cannot be used as a separate word in absence of a negative connotation that preface it...

you cannot say "I like either apples nor bananas" - that sentence makes no sense...
you also cannot say I dislike apples nor bananas - again grammatically it doesn't make any sense

 

[Harmony_Starz]

“I have neither Itzy albums, nor Shinee albums”

I dont knwo what we are talking of but this means the person doesn't own either of them, right? or did I learn English all wrong?

 

[Ahsoka]

I dont knwo what we are talking of but this means the person doesn't own either of them, right? or did I learn English all wrong?

Yeah they don’t own either

 

[Harmony_Starz]

Yeah they don’t own either

My english is functioning right then