I would appreciate this aspect of ancient Egyptian sometimes (1 Viewer)

[Ahsoka]

Ancient Egyptian had what is called determinatives. These would be unpronounced hieroglyphs placed at the end of words, whose role was just to clarify words that have the same sound in ambiguous situations. It would be like if the word present in English was immediately followed by a drawing of a gift if you mean the gift, a drawing of a presentation if you mean the verb, or a drawing of a clock if you mean the time.

 

[Ahsoka]

Language tag:
@athenarose @LexieBoo @Nyaz @Dreamer_of_Songs @Nina @velvet @ChuuAntics @MyLovelyLove @alo @Chiara @eclipsoul @sick @Moguri

 

[ChiaraStar169]

well, luckily we have context clues. like, "I got you a present" would obvs mean a gift. and even gift is ambiguous bc it can mean a present OR a talent or ability. But if you use context clues like "You have a gift for singing", then it makes it less ambiguous.

this is interesting stuff!

 

[Ahsoka]

well, luckily we have context clues. like, "I got you a present" would obvs mean a gift. and even gift is ambiguous bc it can mean a present OR a talent or ability. But if you use context clues like "You have a gift for singing", then it makes it less ambiguous.

this is interesting stuff!

Sure, context can help. But there are still cases where you’d need to clarify. It’s the hot food hot temperature wise or spicy? That’s one that I’ve definitely needed to clarify before.

 

[ChiaraStar169]

Sure, context can help. But there are still cases where you’d need to clarify. It’s the hot food hot temperature wise or spicy? That’s one that I’ve definitely needed to clarify before.

very true! and it even happens in sentences as a whole. Like, "my boyfriend, Joshua, and I" could be misinterpreted as listing three different entities: "my boyfriend", "Joshua", and "I". That's why I just write it as "my boyfriend Joshua and I", because then it's clear that I mean only us.

 

[catonkatonk]

Seems a bit verbose. Has anyone tried having unique words for different things.

 

[Ahsoka]

Seems a bit verbose. Has anyone tried having unique words for different things.

Do any modern languages have that? Ones used by a decent amount of people. I kind of doubt that’s even at all possible because you can always get more specific. Even the English word grandma can mean different things, and in some languages there are two separate words for grandma depending on if it’s your mothers or your fathers mother. And that’s also keeping into mind the limitations of alphabets, there are only so many combinations, especially when you consider sound clusters that don’t exist in said languages

 

[Ahsoka]

very true! and it even happens in sentences as a whole. Like, "my boyfriend, Joshua, and I" could be misinterpreted as listing three different entities: "my boyfriend", "Joshua", and "I". That's why I just write it as "my boyfriend Joshua and I", because then it's clear that I mean only us.

That problem is why I prefer the Oxford comma. If it’s always used you can see the difference between three enteries vs just two in a situation like that. But many people don’t use it, so it doesn’t help right now, except when a person who uses the comma uses in that situation ig

 

[catonkatonk]

Do any modern languages have that? Ones used by a decent amount of people. I kind of doubt that’s even at all possible because you can always get more specific.

I think specificity is a different thing.
When I type "minute", I could be referring to a unit of time, or I could be referring to something being small. These things may share some root, but they are relating to entirely different things, and they aren't even pronounced the same way. There is no reason the latter definition couldn't be attached the spelling "mynute" or something. I mean, why not? It's less ambiguous. Similarly, I don't think we're in danger of running out of sound combinations. Think of all of the words in all of the currently spoken languages. There's overlap, sure, but that's still a lot of possible combinations, even if no alphabet system can capture all of them simultaneously. Maybe we need better alphabets!

To that end, my research has led me to discover that the constructed language Lojban does not have the problem we're describing. Sadly, I don't know her.

 

[LoveYooShaSha]

Not connected except tangentially but there is a sequence of 6 letters which are spelled the same but pronounced differently n hv different meaning depending on just 1 thing- can anybody guess the word n how its pronunciation n meaning are different n wayts the 1 thing?@eclipsoul do u know the word?

Edit PS only in English AFAIK end edit

 

[Ahsoka]

I think specificity is a different thing.
When I type "minute", I could be referring to a unit of time, or I could be referring to something being small. These things may share some root, but they are relating to entirely different things, and they aren't even pronounced the same way. There is no reason the latter definition couldn't be attached the spelling "mynute" or something. I mean, why not? It's less ambiguous. Similarly, I don't think we're in danger of running out of sound combinations. Think of all of the words in all of the currently spoken languages. There's overlap, sure, but that's still a lot of possible combinations, even if no alphabet system can capture all of them simultaneously. Maybe we need better alphabets!

To that end, my research has led me to discover that the constructed language Lojban does not have the problem we're describing. Sadly, I don't know her.

There’s a difference between theoretical and actual, which is what I was talking about. If you don’t take into account limitations of alphabets, languages norms, ability to learn all those sounds, languages diverging among distant groups, ect, then of course it’s theoretically possible. But the only time you could see anything remotely close actually happening would be in constructed languages because they don’t have all the difficulties that comes with being a real spoken language. To try this with any language actually spoken by people would be extremely difficult. Maybe it’ll happen one day if everyone assimilates into one dialect. That said, there have definitely been people who tried to make English more consistent in terms of spelling and meaning, but idek if you can say them even started to make a dent with how little actually changed and how much would need changing. And they only targeted certain dialects of English, not English as a whole.

 

[Ahsoka]

Not connected except tangentially but there is a sequence of 6 letters which are spelled the same but pronounced differently n hv different meaning depending on just 1 thing- can anybody guess the word n how its pronunciation n meaning are different n wayts the 1 thing?@eclipsoul do u know the word?

Edit PS only in English AFAIK end edit

Do you mean the combo ough? That’s pronounced differently based on the rest of the word.

 

[eclipsoul]

@eclipsoul do u know the word?

Edit PS only in English AFAIK end edit

it took me an embarassingly long time to guess - is that word polish? because it means both to make something look shiny and something being from poland

 

[Ahsoka]

it took me an embarassingly long time to guess - is that word polish? because it means both to make something look shiny and something being from poland

Oh that makes more sense It fits

 

[LoveYooShaSha]

it took me an embarassingly long time to guess - is that word polish? because it means both to make something look shiny and something being from poland

Yeah, n I learned this from a book where the author Isaac Asimov(who wrote/edited over 400 books in his lifetime) wrote this as an example of English language interesting facts in one of his stories. No reason to ask ecllipsoul/Julia specifically but just cuz she was the only KSer who might guess the answer from the clue(s). No one else including me would know the answer even if given a week to guess(without further help like Google-ing or using AI maybe). In the book/story it's practically the same page tat the answer n question are shown. 😆 🤣 😂

 

[LoveYooShaSha]

it took me an embarassingly long time to guess - is that word polish? because it means both to make something look shiny and something being from poland

Do you mean the combo ough? That’s pronounced differently based on the rest of the word.

No, Polish is pronounced differently from polish(the capitalised P makes the pronunciation different) unless it's at the beginning of a sentence, where the capitalization doesn't rlly work n it's from context how to pronounce it. So if ur reading a speech blind(ie without knowing what's coming next) it's not obvious how to say "Polish" without knowing what's next. But writing it out it's unusual to hv any speech/writing starting a sentence tat way. Unless it's about how how the pronunciation is different based on if it's capitalized or not. So it rarely would make a difference in everyday life or even otherwise unless somebody says " Polish my boots(something else)" every week/mth but there's no confusion there. Ig I hv no further point other than wat I learned from reading about it the first time.

 

[Ahsoka]

No, Polish is pronounced differently from polish(the capitalised P makes the pronunciation different)

To be fair, I feel like saying that the capital makes it different is a bit misleading. Given that there are words like that pronounced differently with no capitalization difference (bow is different but both lowercase, Berlin Germany and Berlin New Hampshire are both capitalized but pronounced differently). But I’m guessing you mean that the capitalization lets you know which one it is, even if it’s not the reason the pronunciation is different.

Also as a bonus, I found another 6 letter pair that’s pronounced differently and where one is capitalized. August (the month) is pronounced differently than august (not a common word but it means impressive). Though most people faced with your specifications would probably only be able to think of Polish/polish, if they even think of that one

 

[LoveYooShaSha]

To be fair, I feel like saying that the capital makes it different is a bit misleading. Given that there are words like that pronounced differently with no capitalization difference (bow is different but both lowercase, Berlin Germany and Berlin New Hampshire are both capitalized but pronounced differently). But I’m guessing you mean that the capitalization lets you know which one it is, even if it’s not the reason the pronunciation is different.
.....

This capitalisation/pronunciation aspect of Polish/polish isn't original to me so I'm not heavily invested in the idea except insofar as iv believed/long held onto it for nearly 40/35 yrs(from when I first read it originally, or maybe 20 plus yrs, I can't rmbr which story it's from n too lazy/long to chk rn)

....
Also as a bonus, I found another 6 letter pair that’s pronounced differently and where one is capitalized. August (the month) is pronounced differently than august (not a common word but it means impressive). Though most people faced with your specifications would probably only be able to think of Polish/polish, if they even think of that one

I don't know how to pronounce August/august differently tho. This may be similar to how I learnt to pronounce "awry" from long ago to later when I learn I pronounced it wrongly. I pronounced it like Orry as in starting out like awe but later(Idk how much later either 10 or 15 or even 20 yrs on) I learnt it's properly pronounced a-wry. Oops, this is how it is when u(I mean i) read so many books tat I learnt meaning from context n pronounced words in my head without aural/verbal/sonic reference(n almost always nvr chk dictionary for official pronunciation/meaning, it slowed me down too much from reading everything, n after reading it becomes too much homework to go bk n chk).

PS I pronounce Auguste differently from August the month, the e at the end makes a difference(I don't know how I learnt tat tho, or when. Maybe from shows but tat doesn't account for knowing the spelling of Auguste, maybe I learnt it wrong, see above paragraph for longer explanation n no I'm not chking if I'm wrong rn)

 

[Ahsoka]

This capitalisation/pronunciation aspect of Polish/polish isn't original to me so I'm not heavily invested in the idea except insofar as iv believed/long held onto it for nearly 40/35 yrs(from when I first read it originally, or maybe 20 plus yrs, I can't rmbr which story it's from n too lazy/long to chk rn)



I don't know how to pronounce August/august differently tho. This may be similar to how I learnt to pronounce "awry" from long ago to later when I learn I pronounced it wrongly. I pronounced it like Orry as in starting out like awe but later(Idk how much later either 10 or 15 or even 20 yrs on) I learnt it's properly pronounced a-wry. Oops, this is how it is when u(I mean i) read so many books tat I learnt meaning from context n pronounced words in my head without aural/verbal/sonic reference(n almost always nvr chk dictionary for official pronunciation/meaning, it slowed me down too much from reading everything, n after reading it becomes too much homework to go bk n chk).

PS I pronounce Auguste differently from August the month, the e at the end makes a difference(I don't know how I learnt tat tho, or when. Maybe from shows but tat doesn't account for knowing the spelling of Auguste, maybe I learnt it wrong, see above paragraph for longer explanation n no I'm not chking if I'm wrong rn)

For the month, the stress is on the first syllable, like AU-gust. For the other word the stress is on the second syllable, pronounced like au-GUST. I wasn’t familiar with Auguste before this actually, but some dictionary pronunciations give a similar pronunciation between august (not the month) and Auguste. But that carries a lot, most dialects don’t have them as the same