Kpop Idols Right You Know Right?! (3 Viewers)

[GENE_NEWS]

If an Kpop Idol does something bad such as CA however it's the companies fault for letting them do so.....

How do you react?!

Like do you go after with pitchforks and bows and arrows.
Or are you the 1% of Kpop fans/ stans who actually the time to reducate or educate them to become better people?!?!?!

Also, if your faves do the same thing don't go after another group because they did the same thing as well.

 

[athenaaa]

I guess it depends on what they did and who is to blame

 

[Selfmate]

I made a three part thread about it over on the other side lol

This was part one - copy and pasted (from back in 2021)


Why is knowledge so important here - because of the "megathreads" - most of them are on controversial subjects such as racism, cultural appropriation, Sowon/WW2/Hitler, 2nd gen v 3rd gen v 4th gen etc - the issue that is common in all these is (I believe) knowledge

I'm not even going to go into detail about the various types of knowledge - like a priori or a posteriori knowledge - that's beyond the scope of a kpop forum
lets just keep it simple about knowledge that we think others should know.

Many things shape our knowledge:
our background, social economic status, education level, culture, intelligence, societal norms and values, peer group etc.
Those things affect our actual knowledge - from there is it possible to determine what one ought to know about?

A pygmy living in the Amazon jungle has no actual knowledge of the internet, running water or toilet and therefore we don't judge him for not knowing.
A teenager/adult born in the 21st century should know about their country's history, climate change, COVID etc or do they?

Because we are all shaped differently our levels of knowledge vastly differ between genders, ethnicities, countries - hell a twin studying in the same year and same class in the same city could have vastly different levels of knowledge to each other.

Therefore if we are so different why are there certain aspects of knowledge that everyone should know and if they don't what do we do about it.

The consequences of lack of knowledge - do we cancel them, do they have to apologise profusely and make recompense, do they have to go into hiding and mediate on the issue, do they lose their job or stop being an idol or get their entire MV taken down, that is also a very interesting topic but for another day.

What I will end on is who is to determine what one should or ought to know - is it simple ignorance? or arrogance? or something more severe? do we then judge someone based on things that they ought to have known because we believe they should know it. Those things that we know were shaped by our experiences and factors listed above - do we then impart that on others and say hey you should know this too. Vice versa what if others judge us for things that we don't know but they believe we ought to know?

 

[seungfloral]

I made a three part thread about it over on the other side lol

This was part one - copy and pasted (from back in 2021)


Why is knowledge so important here - because of the "megathreads" - most of them are on controversial subjects such as racism, cultural appropriation, Sowon/WW2/Hitler, 2nd gen v 3rd gen v 4th gen etc - the issue that is common in all these is (I believe) knowledge

I'm not even going to go into detail about the various types of knowledge - like a priori or a posteriori knowledge - that's beyond the scope of a kpop forum
lets just keep it simple about knowledge that we think others should know.

Many things shape our knowledge:
our background, social economic status, education level, culture, intelligence, societal norms and values, peer group etc.
Those things affect our actual knowledge - from there is it possible to determine what one ought to know about?

A pygmy living in the Amazon jungle has no actual knowledge of the internet, running water or toilet and therefore we don't judge him for not knowing.
A teenager/adult born in the 21st century should know about their country's history, climate change, COVID etc or do they?

Because we are all shaped differently our levels of knowledge vastly differ between genders, ethnicities, countries - hell a twin studying in the same year and same class in the same city could have vastly different levels of knowledge to each other.

Therefore if we are so different why are there certain aspects of knowledge that everyone should know and if they don't what do we do about it.

The consequences of lack of knowledge - do we cancel them, do they have to apologise profusely and make recompense, do they have to go into hiding and mediate on the issue, do they lose their job or stop being an idol or get their entire MV taken down, that is also a very interesting topic but for another day.

What I will end on is who is to determine what one should or ought to know - is it simple ignorance? or arrogance? or something more severe? do we then judge someone based on things that they ought to have known because we believe they should know it. Those things that we know were shaped by our experiences and factors listed above - do we then impart that on others and say hey you should know this too. Vice versa what if others judge us for things that we don't know but they believe we ought to know?

I think this is a very valid point. Especially on scandals related to racism/ignorance/cultural appropiation.

I for one know i have been probably racist or at least offendive to other cultures too, before going on the internet and learning about the dark history and suffering other people had to go through. It's idealistic to think everyone knows these notions, and understand the struggles another faces from an entirely different background. For myself, i am aware now of some notions, but i'm sure i still have lots of things to learn. But i have an advantage of speaking and understanding English. While on the other hand my peers that never mastered this language might find things about these topics in our mother tongue, which could be from a racist background or from an author not entirely understanding the facts behind the story. So surely i know that not everyone is educated on the topics the same way. However that does not excuse how they respond to it.

If someone tells you that they have been hurt by your actions and the first thing is to find excuses, it's really telling....

On other topics... well sexual misconduct and illegal activities should be handled by the law. Nothing to add to that really.

 

[seungfloral]

If an Kpop Idol does something bad such as CA however it's the companies fault for letting them do so.....

How do you react?!

Oh btw if it's the company's fault, the company should handle the circumstances. I have seen many behind the scene videos of idols telling years after a comeback " Well this was risque, we were afraid to do it... But our CEO told us if we don't do it we will be kicked out of the company"
So yeah, it really depends what company we talking about. If they let their idols have a say in things. Most of the time they don't give a shit, unless you hit big, and even then ... you are barely paid so you are hanging on to this career.

Ex. Momoland, was Baam very stereotipycal and cheap by the use of those costumes? Sure.
Did they have any say on it? Not really seeing how their most popular member revealed at the height of her popularity that she barely made minimum wage ... so yeah... fucked up situation.

 

[Selfmate]

I think this is a very valid point. Especially on scandals related to racism/ignorance/cultural appropiation.

I for one know i have been probably racist or at least offendive to other cultures too, before going on the internet and learning about the dark history and suffering other people had to go through. It's idealistic to think everyone knows these notions, and understand the struggles another faces from an entirely different background. For myself, i am aware now of some notions, but i'm sure i still have lots of things to learn. But i have an advantage of speaking and understanding English. While on the other hand my peers that never mastered this language might find things about these topics in our mother tongue, which could be from a racist background or from an author not entirely understanding the facts behind the story. So surely i know that not everyone is educated on the topics the same way. However that does not excuse how they respond to it.

If someone tells you that they have been hurt by your actions and the first thing is to find excuses, it's really telling....

On other topics... well sexual misconduct and illegal activities should be handled by the law. Nothing to add to that really.

interesting
I'll post part 2 later lol

 

[GENE_NEWS]

Oh btw if it's the company's fault, the company should handle the circumstances. I have seen many behind the scene videos of idols telling years after a comeback " Well this was risque, we were afraid to do it... But our CEO told us if we don't do it we will be kicked out of the company"
So yeah, it really depends what company we talking about. If they let their idols have a say in things. Most of the time they don't give a shit, unless you hit big, and even then ... you are barely paid so you are hanging on to this career.

Ex. Momoland, was Baam very stereotipycal and cheap by the use of those costumes? Sure.
Did they have any say on it? Not really seeing how their most popular member revealed at the height of her popularity that she barely made minimum wage ... so yeah... fucked up situation.

Perfect explanation!!!!!!!!!1 I think you and must of comments here have the time to actually communicate effectively.

 

[seungfloral]

Perfect explanation!!!!!!!!!1 I think you and must of comments here have the time to actually communicate effectively.

Really enjoy talking about these topics with such kind ppl. The merit is yours for bringing the topic

 

[Selfmate]

@seungfloral and @GENE_NEWS

Part 2

I wanted to do part 2 on the consequences of a lack of knowledge but this came up in my head so I thought I'd start with this first so
In part two we'll discuss our own lack of knowledge and later if when I have the time we'll discuss the consequences of the lack of knowledge in part 3

There is no one that will ever achieve total knowledge and there is never someone without any knowledge at all.
The question I pose is what do we do about our own lack of knowledge?

This issues comes before the issue I plan to discuss in Part 3 purely because one can only control one's own actions, you cannot dictate what other people do or say. You can convince, bribe, threaten, persuade, argue, beg, demand another change their actions but nothing is guaranteed to work unless that person willingly choose to change themselves.

So what do you we do about our own lack of knowledge - the first step is to always is to realize that we truly know nothing. As Ygritte always says " you know nothing Jon Snow" - we also know nothing and in fact the more we believe we know about something the more dangerous it becomes because we can become complacent in such knowledge and deflect/defer all other information believing that we know everything.

When we can admit to ourselves - not to others but to ourselves that yes in this topic that I might not know everything is the first step to knowledge enlightenment. This is because one can then understand that our knowledge is deficient and others can provide information to fill in those gaps that we are missing - obviously not everyone else will also have knowledge on the subject or even the correct knowledge but at least we can use our thoughts to determine how new information fits in with our existing knowledge base without dismissing others as simply wrong.

Step two is then to increase our knowledge of the topic by listening to others opinions, challenging them, asking questions, thinking and listening as oppose to talking. There is no Kpop bible or Dummies guide to Kpop (someone should write one though) - that's why a lot of times when we learn about kpop through others. People seem more conducive to helping you if you state I don't know much about this topic would you share your thoughts as oppose to you're wrong I'm right. Again it doesn't mean that they are also necessarily right all the time but it's always a good starting point for discussion. Again just as we can't change other's actions or opinions others can't change ours - we must do that ourselves.

BUT selfmate you might ask this is all well and good in an ideal fantasy fairy world where the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus dance to Gangnam Style but this is MF the internet where half the people are trolls, the other half are troglodytes who probably don't even know what a troglodyte is...

Well again we cannot control the actions of others - if one cannot engaging in a meaningful discussion on a topic without resorting to insults, derogatory terms or worse then it may be a good point to disengage and come back another time. If someone is not willing to engage then we shouldn't sink down to their level because there's nothing to be gained by it besides hurt feelings and anger on both sides - it might be better to acknowledge differences and walk away.

I don't know about others but one of the truly special moments for me is when someone challenges my believes and opinions which causes me to reflect on my own knowledge and the lack thereof - the EUREKA moment when you go " huh this guys has a point" and you're left standing there pondering nodding your head thinking intensely on what was just said...

 

[GENE_NEWS]

@seungfloral and @GENE_NEWS

Part 2

I wanted to do part 2 on the consequences of a lack of knowledge but this came up in my head so I thought I'd start with this first so
In part two we'll discuss our own lack of knowledge and later if when I have the time we'll discuss the consequences of the lack of knowledge in part 3

There is no one that will ever achieve total knowledge and there is never someone without any knowledge at all.
The question I pose is what do we do about our own lack of knowledge?

This issues comes before the issue I plan to discuss in Part 3 purely because one can only control one's own actions, you cannot dictate what other people do or say. You can convince, bribe, threaten, persuade, argue, beg, demand another change their actions but nothing is guaranteed to work unless that person willingly choose to change themselves.

So what do you we do about our own lack of knowledge - the first step is to always is to realize that we truly know nothing. As Ygritte always says " you know nothing Jon Snow" - we also know nothing and in fact the more we believe we know about something the more dangerous it becomes because we can become complacent in such knowledge and deflect/defer all other information believing that we know everything.

When we can admit to ourselves - not to others but to ourselves that yes in this topic that I might not know everything is the first step to knowledge enlightenment. This is because one can then understand that our knowledge is deficient and others can provide information to fill in those gaps that we are missing - obviously not everyone else will also have knowledge on the subject or even the correct knowledge but at least we can use our thoughts to determine how new information fits in with our existing knowledge base without dismissing others as simply wrong.

Step two is then to increase our knowledge of the topic by listening to others opinions, challenging them, asking questions, thinking and listening as oppose to talking. There is no Kpop bible or Dummies guide to Kpop (someone should write one though) - that's why a lot of times when we learn about kpop through others. People seem more conducive to helping you if you state I don't know much about this topic would you share your thoughts as oppose to you're wrong I'm right. Again it doesn't mean that they are also necessarily right all the time but it's always a good starting point for discussion. Again just as we can't change other's actions or opinions others can't change ours - we must do that ourselves.

BUT selfmate you might ask this is all well and good in an ideal fantasy fairy world where the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus dance to Gangnam Style but this is MF the internet where half the people are trolls, the other half are troglodytes who probably don't even know what a troglodyte is...

Well again we cannot control the actions of others - if one cannot engaging in a meaningful discussion on a topic without resorting to insults, derogatory terms or worse then it may be a good point to disengage and come back another time. If someone is not willing to engage then we shouldn't sink down to their level because there's nothing to be gained by it besides hurt feelings and anger on both sides - it might be better to acknowledge differences and walk away.

I don't know about others but one of the truly special moments for me is when someone challenges my believes and opinions which causes me to reflect on my own knowledge and the lack thereof - the EUREKA moment when you go " huh this guys has a point" and you're left standing there pondering nodding your head thinking intensely on what was just said...

You are a legend.
Like the way your brain works is impressive.

 

[GENE_NEWS]

Really enjoy talking about these topics with such kind ppl. The merit is yours for bringing the topic

I am actually surprised of how you all delivered in your wording literally the best explanations.

Like if i were to speak about these important topics with an different person. They would be like it's their fault, it's their choices.

They don't really like tell or say why they have those thoughts.

You have a brillant mind!!!!!!

 

[Selfmate]

You are a legend.
Like the way your brain works is impressive.

thanks there is a part 3 lol

 

[GENE_NEWS]

thanks there is a part 3 lol

Go ahead literally I just want to hear everyone's thoughts!!!!!!

 

[Selfmate]

Go ahead literally I just want to hear everyone's thoughts!!!!!!

part 3

If we can first admit that we do not know everything then wouldn't we also do that for others by first considering that they might not know everything?

Just as our first step is to determine the extent of our knowledge shouldn't we also do that for other people? Instead of jumping on people and assuming they know everything (or nothing) shouldn't it be beholden upon us to determine whether someone actually knows something or not? and if it turns out that they don't know something should we not try educate them? this way they too can increase their knowledge and by contiguously engaging in discussion one might realise that what we initially believed to be true might not be (or rather might not be 100%) thus all parties benefit from said discussion.

How to actually engage with others is a difficult task - because one doesn't want to come off as condensing or offensive, others may feel like its an attack on themselves because you have just questioned their knowledge and their beliefs. It is a delicate process that requires one to truly feel the need to engage positively and constructively. And again that process begins with us of how we act to others perceived lack of knowledge will determine how others act towards us (Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have others unto to you). If others sense hostility, aggressiveness, opposition in our words then they will become so themselves leading to a breakdown in communication. Our choice of words matter but also the intent behind them, it is so much easier to state your wrong here's the answer instead of asking open-ended questions and thinking about the answers. If we cannot bring that attitude to the table then why would we expect others to do the same. It can be a frustrating task that you truly cannot understand the words coming out of another person and honestly believe that they are dumber than a mule so it is up to us look beyond the mere words to better understand where another person is coming from.

What if others do not wish to engage then why force it? if another person actively declares that they are not interested then there is very little room for further discussion. One cannot have a discussion by oneself so there is no need to press the matter. Sometimes it is better to retreat to fight another day.

Even if we determine someone is 100% wrong who are we to judge another for their lack of knowledge - I've already pointed out the various factors that make up our lack of knowledge in part 1 so why then do we judge purely based on the "lack of knowledge" and not focus on the underlying factors which have caused that person to have the lack of knowledge. As children we learned to share, at lunch you would share your 1/2 of your PB&J for 1/2 of their chocolate sandwich thus allowing both parties to enjoy the benefits - why then when we turn into adults does the same not apply in respect of knowledge - if we know something, they know something - by sharing our knowledge we are both wiser for it.

There are so many other things that I could have discussed but maybe for another day but I'll leave with this Sun Tzu said know thyself, know they enemy, 1000 battles, 1000 victories.

 

[seungfloral]

part 3

If we can first admit that we do not know everything then wouldn't we also do that for others by first considering that they might not know everything?

Just as our first step is to determine the extent of our knowledge shouldn't we also do that for other people? Instead of jumping on people and assuming they know everything (or nothing) shouldn't it be beholden upon us to determine whether someone actually knows something or not? and if it turns out that they don't know something should we not try educate them? this way they too can increase their knowledge and by contiguously engaging in discussion one might realise that what we initially believed to be true might not be (or rather might not be 100%) thus all parties benefit from said discussion.

How to actually engage with others is a difficult task - because one doesn't want to come off as condensing or offensive, others may feel like its an attack on themselves because you have just questioned their knowledge and their beliefs. It is a delicate process that requires one to truly feel the need to engage positively and constructively. And again that process begins with us of how we act to others perceived lack of knowledge will determine how others act towards us (Golden Rule - do unto others as you would have others unto to you). If others sense hostility, aggressiveness, opposition in our words then they will become so themselves leading to a breakdown in communication. Our choice of words matter but also the intent behind them, it is so much easier to state your wrong here's the answer instead of asking open-ended questions and thinking about the answers. If we cannot bring that attitude to the table then why would we expect others to do the same. It can be a frustrating task that you truly cannot understand the words coming out of another person and honestly believe that they are dumber than a mule so it is up to us look beyond the mere words to better understand where another person is coming from.

What if others do not wish to engage then why force it? if another person actively declares that they are not interested then there is very little room for further discussion. One cannot have a discussion by oneself so there is no need to press the matter. Sometimes it is better to retreat to fight another day.

Even if we determine someone is 100% wrong who are we to judge another for their lack of knowledge - I've already pointed out the various factors that make up our lack of knowledge in part 1 so why then do we judge purely based on the "lack of knowledge" and not focus on the underlying factors which have caused that person to have the lack of knowledge. As children we learned to share, at lunch you would share your 1/2 of your PB&J for 1/2 of their chocolate sandwich thus allowing both parties to enjoy the benefits - why then when we turn into adults does the same not apply in respect of knowledge - if we know something, they know something - by sharing our knowledge we are both wiser for it.

There are so many other things that I could have discussed but maybe for another day but I'll leave with this Sun Tzu said know thyself, know they enemy, 1000 battles, 1000 victories.

Read both, was an enjoyment, the troglodytes xD Lmao idk what those are ...

I only have to add that i agree. I heard some wiser ppl than me say that if u begin to know more about a topic, you eventually realize there is so much more that you don't know. A.k.a. knowledge is vast, we may enever comprehend it completely, and that's alright. It's the attitude of realizing that we won't that matters, while still keeping our spirit of trying to learn more.

Yeah, and if someone doesnt like what u say, or doesnt like what u did, what can you do? Fight on the internet, that's all....

It's sad that we immediately turn to criticize instead of educate, but i understand the hurt party too in this part. Still a civil discussion about it is more valuablen than death threats imo.

 

[Selfmate]

Read both, was an enjoyment, the troglodytes xD Lmao idk what those are ...

I only have to add that i agree. I heard some wiser ppl than me say that if u begin to know more about a topic, you eventually realize there is so much more that you don't know. A.k.a. knowledge is vast, we may enever comprehend it completely, and that's alright. It's the attitude of realizing that we won't that matters, while still keeping our spirit of trying to learn more.

Yeah, and if someone doesnt like what u say, or doesnt like what u did, what can you do? Fight on the internet, that's all....

It's sad that we immediately turn to criticize instead of educate, but i understand the hurt party too in this part. Still a civil discussion about it is more valuablen than death threats imo.

thanks mate

that's the point - the first step is to acknowledge our own shortfalls and to reflect on ourselves...only then can we begin to accept new information
like i said obviously not all new information is accurate and therefore we have to think critically about such to determine it's validity

civil discussion and discourse is an art long dead my friend lol

 

[seungfloral]

thanks mate

that's the point - the first step is to acknowledge our own shortfalls and to reflect on ourselves...only then can we begin to accept new information
like i said obviously not all new information is accurate and therefore we have to think critically about such to determine it's validity

civil discussion and discourse is an art long dead my friend lol

Omg i'm your mate TT Love u

 

[Selfmate]

Omg i'm your mate TT Love u

well we are friends are we not? lol

 

[seungfloral]

well we are friends are we not? lol

I mean yes, but it feels good to see it again 🤗

 

[ani07]

well, first of all I think you cant blame a company for what an idol did, because they have their own free will and can decide on their own.
for example taking drugs, its not like the company forced it down their throat, even if they shut their eyes to it or even gave it to them, in the end they made the decision to take them.

anyways, I also think it depends on what they did and if they hurt another person.