Why do we tend to automatically dislike members that get added after debut? (1 Viewer)

[Moguri]

I was just thinking about Yeris case again.. from what I can gather, to this day she seems to be least popular member of the group, with the main reason given, that she got only added later.

She got added half a year after the group debuted and missed only the first 2 songs as far as I can tell and at this point the group exists for 8 years with her and 6 month without her and I think its safe to say they had their greates hits with her on board. Also had Red Vevlet debuted 6 month later, Yeri would never have been an issue and she would just be the cute Maknae of the group.

I don't really want to picture the situation with red vevlet as bad or act like its a big problem, it just helps to illustrate my point, so I would really appreciate it if you could not only focus on me mentioning them as an example and attack me for it

So I wonder, why are we as fans like this? I know this is not speaking for everyone, but I think the majority would generally reject every additon to their new favorite group at first. Just imagine new members getting added to IVE, New Jeans or LSFM. I think people would not be too happy and even if the new member would objectivly improve the group in every thinkable way, the majority of the old fans would still dislike the new member, just based on the fact that she got added afterwards.

Especially in Kpop this is kind of weird though, as we know this is not a group of life long friends that came together to realise their dreams, but a bunch of young idols recruited by their company and put together according to what the company believes would yield the best result. So why are we still feeling so protective about the original debut lineup?

 

[Myth]

It's not necessarily a deep thing. I just think when you're used to something, adjusting to change isn't something easy for a lot of people... this goes for like... anything in life from things as minuscule as a different coat of paint on the wall to bigger things like moving cities.

This isn't all cases, but some changes in kpop groups come with baggage that can make fans feel uneasy. I think groups like Red Velvet are more of an exception because a member didn't leave before Yeri joined. She just joined early on and the group has stayed stable. Been 5 forever.

However, lineup changes among more nugu groups are different convo. Blackswan is the worst case of this as they are basically a revolving door of members joining and leaving. From their early days as Rania to now, they had 20+ members join their group (most of which subsequently left at some point in time). I think for fans of that group, it's not easy to follow a group that changes so frequently.

Less extreme cases would be Cignature, TO1, and PIXY, all of which had members leave, and later had members join to replace the missing members. I think having new members come in and essentially "replace" the old leaves a sour taste in fans mouths. Additionally, adding new members like this does change the dynamics, which can be hard to adjust to.

 

[Ahsoka]

It's not necessarily a deep thing. I just think when you're used to something, adjusting to change isn't something easy for a lot of people... this goes for like... anything in life from things as minuscule as a different coat of paint on the wall to bigger things like moving cities.

This isn't all cases, but some changes in kpop groups come with baggage that can make fans feel uneasy. I think groups like Red Velvet are more of an exception because a member didn't leave before Yeri joined. She just joined early on and the group has stayed stable. Been 5 forever.

However, lineup changes among more nugu groups are different convo. Blackswan is the worst case of this as they are basically a revolving door of members joining and leaving. From their early days as Rania to now, they had 20+ members join their group (most of which subsequently left at some point in time). I think for fans of that group, it's not easy to follow a group that changes so frequently.

Less extreme cases would be Cignature, TO1, and PIXY, all of which had members leave, and later had members join to replace the missing members. I think having new members come in and essentially "replace" the old leaves a sour taste in fans mouths. Additionally, adding new members like this does change the dynamics, which can be hard to adjust to.

It does seem weird when they’re adding people left and right for a typical idol group in most cases. Like one example I can think of is 24k, they have none of the old members, and most of the new members joined at once, so it feels like they’re just dragging the group out instead of starting a new one. I think one exception to this would be bands, I feel like it makes more sense to add members if others leave because of the instruments no longer being present.

 

[Myth]

It does seem weird when they’re adding people left and right for a typical idol group in most cases. Like one example I can think of is 24k, they have none of the old members, and most of the new members joined at once, so it feels like they’re just dragging the group out instead of starting a new one. I think one exception to this would be bands, I feel like it makes more sense to add members if others leave because of the instruments no longer being present.

yeah it's like... if you essentially replaced the group altogether, can you even call them the same group anymore? It will inevitably burn out fans because it just feels so different.

Unless said group has a very distinct or reoccurring element that stays consistent with lineup changes, maybe you can make an argument for it. This isn't kpop but I've followed 3 different western rock bands (Talking Heads, The Beatles, and Queens of the Stone Age). I think with the first two (especially the beatles) each member contributes very important parts in their music that it would feel very off if one of them was replaced... meanwhile qotsa is different in that it has many lineup changes over the years with the exception of the front man, Josh Homme. The group direction wise is heavily built on his vision and what he wants, so to me, even with the changes, they are still qotsa because of Josh Homme's direction. He is the most important part of the group.

idk hope I'm making sense. That's how I would relate to it kpop lineup changes in my experiences. Most idol groups I think don't really have a "Josh Homme" directing and leading everything in a very concise manner, so they can't really recreate something like that imo.

 

[centen]

It kind of depends on the situation.

With RV, I remember that some people were upset because adding a new member disrupts everything else for the existing members. The opportunities get split five ways instead of four. I think SME has enough experience with that you'll notice that the early RV songs with Yeri don't have her shoved in people's faces or give her a ton of lines and she wasn't the first to get solo opportunities, so that kind of careful consideration helps calms things down. SME groups are usually fine, but if you think about a group from a smaller company whose opportunities are more uncertain, it can be really worrisome that someone who is already an established part of the group might get shoved aside for someone that people viewed as less talented.

For another example, I remember when K/DA came back with More, and granted they're a "group" in the sense that they're just characters to help sell a video game, and people absolutely hated a fifth member being added, given an entire verse, and given center stage. LoL had to clarify that she was just collabing with K/DA. (They fucked up a lot of things with her, from what I understand from my friends who play League, that she's really not a popular champion despite LoL pushing her so hard.) I use it as an example that there's a right way and a wrong way to mix up members.

There are also some more nugu groups that have turned over so many times that you could find two people who are fans of the same group and share no songs they like because the members and sound changed so much. U-KISS comes to mind. One of the original members eventually rejoined, but I don't consider today's U-KISS the same as the group I was a KissMe for back in Kevin's days.

 

[ichigohon]

I think as others have said it is just a change to what you've become accustomed to with the group. However, this isn't universally the case. Hwayoung was quite popular when she was in T-Ara despite being added 2 years after debut.

Speaking as a fan of groups that have quite a number of lineup changes like RaNia, Tahiti, and Nine Muses the reaction to lineup changes can vary vastly. I love RaNia's music but once they added Alex and became BP RaNia it made me quite angry as a fan to see DR Music get so much undeserved promotion for exploiting Alex & a lot of the original RaNia fans got chased out of fandom because we were seen as racist for disagreeing with her addition to he lineup. Tahiti fans are the smallest out of this group but for every comeback until 2014 they had a lineup change but no one really reacted or cared too much & Jerry's addition to replace Jungbin who left due to a serious illness was met with a lot praise within the fandom. Nine Muses's new members never really faced a lot of backlash until the majority of original members had been replaced & it was evident that Star Empire had completely ran out of female trainees to replace them, but even then two of the most popular members in 9Muses had been additions like Kyungri & Hyuna.

Spoiler

A bit more on the RaNia situation, I think it is completely unreasonable to consider Black Swan as RaNia as they are so far removed from the original lineup that they should not be considered the same group anymore. Also, a bit more context on Alex's addition for people who were not around during her addition or fans of RaNia at the time: A lot of new "fans" came into the RaNia fandom right after we lost 3 members who were extremely talented & they came in strictly because of Alex's addition. We perceived them as not caring at all about RaNia's music or it's prior members or it's current members other than Alex. We all agreed that Alex was talented but we were steamrolled out of the fandom completely because we were "racist" if we pointed out that Alex's addition was purely a PR stunt & that she could not speak Korean. It still infuriates me as a former RaNia stan that the majority of people that stan whatever skeletal remains of them exist in Black Swan is that they would not & did not care about RaNia if they never decided to start adding members who were not East & Southeast Asian.

 

[Moguri]

It's not necessarily a deep thing. I just think when you're used to something, adjusting to change isn't something easy for a lot of people... this goes for like... anything in life from things as minuscule as a different coat of paint on the wall to bigger things like moving cities.

This isn't all cases, but some changes in kpop groups come with baggage that can make fans feel uneasy. I think groups like Red Velvet are more of an exception because a member didn't leave before Yeri joined. She just joined early on and the group has stayed stable. Been 5 forever.

However, lineup changes among more nugu groups are different convo. Blackswan is the worst case of this as they are basically a revolving door of members joining and leaving. From their early days as Rania to now, they had 20+ members join their group (most of which subsequently left at some point in time). I think for fans of that group, it's not easy to follow a group that changes so frequently.

Less extreme cases would be Cignature, TO1, and PIXY, all of which had members leave, and later had members join to replace the missing members. I think having new members come in and essentially "replace" the old leaves a sour taste in fans mouths. Additionally, adding new members like this does change the dynamics, which can be hard to adjust to.

ohh I understand all those things about not wanting change, I'm no different! I just sometimes think it would be better if we could be more open minded and first give the change a fair chance before we are against it

But I was really thinking about smaller changes here, like 1 member.. what you describe with 20+ members joining and leaving.. thats really way overboard and in my opinion has nothing to do with the original group anymore. Kpop groups are not like sports club where you have loyality more towards the brand than the players, so I would not see any point to follow a group anymore after they replaced the entire original lineup, here I agree with @Vikki that it would be better to just start a new group. Especially when the group was nugu anyways, I don't even see the point to go on with the group name at all costs, what are they even thinking?!

I'm not sure what to think about replacing members that left, its a tricky situation if an important role in the group is suddenly void because of a member leaving, I can see why the company would try to close that void again, but also understand the fans not liking it

 

[Myth]

ohh I understand all those things about not wanting change, I'm no different! I just sometimes think it would be better if we could be more open minded and first give the change a fair chance before we are against it

But I was really thinking about smaller changes here, like 1 member.. what you describe with 20+ members joining and leaving.. thats really way overboard and in my opinion has nothing to do with the original group anymore. Kpop groups are not like sports club where you have loyality more towards the brand than the players, so I would not see any point to follow a group anymore after they replaced the entire original lineup, here I agree with @Vikki that it would be better to just start a new group. Especially when the group was nugu anyways, I don't even see the point to go on with the group name at all costs, what are they even thinking?!

I'm not sure what to think about replacing members that left, its a tricky situation if an important role in the group is suddenly void because of a member leaving, I can see why the company would try to close that void again, but also understand the fans not liking it

Yeah I unstanned Pixy because one of the members that left was a bias, so idk I felt really sad about it and following the group would be kind of painful to me.

I don't hate that they added a new member though. 4 members is smaller than 6 and it helps to have one to fill the void. I wish them the best even if I don't follow them anymore. I suppose for fans of groups like that, the members that remain ofc still deserve love and support so it's good that fans that can embrace the changes can as that is really the only path forward at that point. Can't undo the changes really...

 

[Moguri]

yeah it's like... if you essentially replaced the group altogether, can you even call them the same group anymore? It will inevitably burn out fans because it just feels so different.

Unless said group has a very distinct or reoccurring element that stays consistent with lineup changes, maybe you can make an argument for it. This isn't kpop but I've followed 3 different western rock bands (Talking Heads, The Beatles, and Queens of the Stone Age). I think with the first two (especially the beatles) each member contributes very important parts in their music that it would feel very off if one of them was replaced... meanwhile qotsa is different in that it has many lineup changes over the years with the exception of the front man, Josh Homme. The group direction wise is heavily built on his vision and what he wants, so to me, even with the changes, they are still qotsa because of Josh Homme's direction. He is the most important part of the group.

idk hope I'm making sense. That's how I would relate to it kpop lineup changes in my experiences. Most idol groups I think don't really have a "Josh Homme" directing and leading everything in a very concise manner, so they can't really recreate something like that imo.

I hope none of their fans see this, but maybe..

Spoiler

G-Idle? Isn't Soyeon doing like pretty much everything like writing and composing all their songs and giving the group direction?

 

[Moguri]

It kind of depends on the situation.

With RV, I remember that some people were upset because adding a new member disrupts everything else for the existing members. The opportunities get split five ways instead of four. I think SME has enough experience with that you'll notice that the early RV songs with Yeri don't have her shoved in people's faces or give her a ton of lines and she wasn't the first to get solo opportunities, so that kind of careful consideration helps calms things down. SME groups are usually fine, but if you think about a group from a smaller company whose opportunities are more uncertain, it can be really worrisome that someone who is already an established part of the group might get shoved aside for someone that people viewed as less talented.

For another example, I remember when K/DA came back with More, and granted they're a "group" in the sense that they're just characters to help sell a video game, and people absolutely hated a fifth member being added, given an entire verse, and given center stage. LoL had to clarify that she was just collabing with K/DA. (They fucked up a lot of things with her, from what I understand from my friends who play League, that she's really not a popular champion despite LoL pushing her so hard.) I use it as an example that there's a right way and a wrong way to mix up members.

There are also some more nugu groups that have turned over so many times that you could find two people who are fans of the same group and share no songs they like because the members and sound changed so much. U-KISS comes to mind. One of the original members eventually rejoined, but I don't consider today's U-KISS the same as the group I was a KissMe for back in Kevin's days.

I didn't know Yeri was introduced so carefully! It sounds like a good course of action to calm things down
But I assume the company would also not just push a member because its new, if they consider other members more talented or marketable, but I get your point.

I did not follow that entire thing with Seraphim personally, but yeah its a good example of someone being shoved in peoples faces and them rejecting it. I'm not sure about her being popular as a champion per se though, thats usually decided by how broken they are

 

[Myth]

I hope none of their fans see this, but maybe..

Spoiler

G-Idle? Isn't Soyeon doing like pretty much everything like writing and composing all their songs and giving the group direction?

Oh yeah idle could be one of those groups for sure. Soyeon is basically who really built idle.

It's not necessarily impossible I suppose. With Pentagon's last comeback, 'Invite U', Hui wasn't involved because he was enlisted, and Hui is very largely involved with Pentagon's music direction. So it felt different.

Not really a bad different though. I and I think most Universe enjoyed the comeback, but I have heard some say it felt too different without Hui's involvement, so they couldn't vibe with it.

I suppose it really depends on how open fans would be to change and how exactly the change happens. Idle without Soyeon would still be idle, but it would be a very different kind of idle...

 

[Moguri]

I think as others have said it is just a change to what you've become accustomed to with the group. However, this isn't universally the case. Hwayoung was quite popular when she was in T-Ara despite being added 2 years after debut.

Speaking as a fan of groups that have quite a number of lineup changes like RaNia, Tahiti, and Nine Muses the reaction to lineup changes can vary vastly. I love RaNia's music but once they added Alex and became BP RaNia it made me quite angry as a fan to see DR Music get so much undeserved promotion for exploiting Alex & a lot of the original RaNia fans got chased out of fandom because we were seen as racist for disagreeing with her addition to he lineup. Tahiti fans are the smallest out of this group but for every comeback until 2014 they had a lineup change but no one really reacted or cared too much & Jerry's addition to replace Jungbin who left due to a serious illness was met with a lot praise within the fandom. Nine Muses's new members never really faced a lot of backlash until the majority of original members had been replaced & it was evident that Star Empire had completely ran out of female trainees to replace them, but even then two of the most popular members in 9Muses had been additions like Kyungri & Hyuna.

Spoiler

A bit more on the RaNia situation, I think it is completely unreasonable to consider Black Swan as RaNia as they are so far removed from the original lineup that they should not be considered the same group anymore. Also, a bit more context on Alex's addition for people who were not around during her addition or fans of RaNia at the time: A lot of new "fans" came into the RaNia fandom right after we lost 3 members who were extremely talented & they came in strictly because of Alex's addition. We perceived them as not caring at all about RaNia's music or it's prior members or it's current members other than Alex. We all agreed that Alex was talented but we were steamrolled out of the fandom completely because we were "racist" if we pointed out that Alex's addition was purely a PR stunt & that she could not speak Korean. It still infuriates me as a former RaNia stan that the majority of people that stan whatever skeletal remains of them exist in Black Swan is that they would not & did not care about RaNia if they never decided to start adding members who were not East & Southeast Asian.

uhhh I never heared of Tahiti and dindn't know 9 Muses also had so many lineup changes why did tahiti fans not react to the changes?

oooof I was not around to witness this entire Rania situation but it sounds very messy, I think I rather keep my distance from the group and everything that has do with it thank you for clarifiying!

 

[Moguri]

Yeah I unstanned Pixy because one of the members that left was a bias, so idk I felt really sad about it and following the group would be kind of painful to me.

I don't hate that they added a new member though. 4 members is smaller than 6 and it helps to have one to fill the void. I wish them the best even if I don't follow them anymore. I suppose for fans of groups like that, the members that remain ofc still deserve love and support so it's good that fans that can embrace the changes can as that is really the only path forward at that point. Can't undo the changes really...

thats understandable! If your favorite member leaves and you are really invested, it can be hard to still follow the group afterwards

 

[Moguri]

Oh yeah idle could be one of those groups for sure. Soyeon is basically who really built idle.

It's not necessarily impossible I suppose. With Pentagon's last comeback, 'Invite U', Hui wasn't involved because he was enlisted, and Hui is very largely involved with Pentagon's music direction. So it felt different.

Not really a bad different though. I and I think most Universe enjoyed the comeback, but I have heard some say it felt too different without Hui's involvement, so they couldn't vibe with it.

I suppose it really depends on how open fans would be to change and how exactly the change happens. Idle without Soyeon would still be idle, but it would be a very different kind of idle...

I think its hard to fully grasp what some of the Idols at CUBE are actually doing for their groups and how much impact some individuals have

At this point I just wonder what CUBE as an agency even does for the groups or what benefits they get from working with CUBE I guess if they are really multitaltend gods like Soeyeon it can be nice to have a lot of freedom at least

 

[Myth]

I think its hard to fully grasp what some of the Idols at CUBE are actually doing for their groups and how much impact some individuals have

At this point I just wonder what CUBE as an agency even does for the groups or what benefits they get from working with CUBE I guess if they are really multitaltend gods like Soeyeon it can be nice to have a lot of freedom at least

yeah looking at idle compared to lightsum right now is like... ahhh

 

[Selfmate]

I'm not in the loop with most things but how many times in kpop history has a new member(s) been added to a group post the group's initial debut?
and of those how many are still in exstence?

 

[Moguri]

yeah looking at idle compared to lightsum right now is like... ahhh

I don't know lightsum very well, what is their situation? I can just see they lost 2 members recently

 

[Myth]

I don't know lightsum very well, what is their situation? I can just see they lost 2 members recently

Some are worried they'll become CLC 2.0 as they don't seem to really have a clear direction.

I think CUBE is having a very difficult time making them stand out since they seem to be lost in the crowd of all the new gg. They don't really have a good niche that really sells them imo. They are kind of just... there.

At least with idle, you have Soyeon at the helm to guide the group and give them an interesting and unique direction... Lightsum doesn't really have something like that.

The 2 members lost were the youngest one. tbh I'm not sure why they left. There could be some behind the scenes things going on. It's speculaed that they might be able to do more mature concepts now with them gone, but that might not be the reason they left.... that's speculation.

We'll have to wait and see if this will result in a major direction shift or not I suppose.

 

[Moguri]

I'm not in the loop with most things but how many times in kpop history has a new member(s) been added to a group post the group's initial debut?
and of those how many are still in exstence?

Apart from the groups that got named so far in the Thread, the only example that comes to my mind right now is Dreamcatcher, who added 2 members, but also rebranded from their previous group name and concept

 

[Selfmate]

Apart from the groups that got named so far in the Thread, the only example that comes to my mind right now is Dreamcatcher, who added 2 members, but also rebranded from their previous group name and concept

I consider dreamcatcher an entire new group with a new name and everything so I wouldn't consider them a group that has added new members to it
but you obviously know more about them than I do so I will leave it at that