News Over 70 former Eurovision contestants have signed an open letter calling for Israel to be banned from this year’s contest (1 Viewer)

Soogi

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I can understand having issues with the government of a "problematic country"
I can understand having issues with the military of a "problematic country"
what one is saying is that all citizens within a "problematic country" are responsible for the actions of a "problematic country"

obviously the question of what a "problematic country" is is left to the individual
I don't really have any issues with anybody deciding to boycott or have issues with what they deem to be a "problematic country" - is one's own choice at the end of the day

my question again comes down to why does one have issues with the individual people of a "problematic country"? obviously as velvet mentioned the Israeli contingent apparently wrote lyrics about the war and I again I would say sure judge them based on that and that action alone because it's those actions that may be seen as problematic not the mere fact that belong to some race, colour, group, nationality no?

when we start assigning fault to individuals who belong to a certain class/group does that not end up in a slippery slope?
i was very clear though? again, it does not matter who the artist is, no one is saying yuval raphael should not be allowed to compete in eurovision. what everyone is saying is, israel should not be allowed to compete.

the nuance here is, when you compete in the eurovision you are never competing as an individual, for your own name. you are explicitly competing under the flag of the country you represent. people and the media won't say "selfmate won the eurovision", they'll say "this country won the eurovision". in that same vein, notice how this thread doesn't say "people are petitioning to ban yuval raphael from eurovision", it clearly says they want israel to be banned.

if this was the voice, and an israeli performer is competing, people would not petition for them to be disqualified purely on the basis of their ethnicity because they are not there representing israel. unless they explicitly glorify the genocide, of course, in which case they are sending a political message in support of israel.

really, @catonkatonk worded the issue in such an eloquent and intelligent way. 100% what they are saying
 
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Very obviously not, on the basis that the prize is for an individual representing, at best, a scientific institution. They are not representing their country.

In the Olympics, you can compete as an Independent, thereby not representing your country of origin.

But this entire line of questioning from you seems either disingenuous or obtuse, tbh. The Israeli competitors are deliberately running propaganda for their country. There is a global media campaign to vote for them funded by the Israeli government (and before the question: No. The UK government does not provide any funding at all in respect to Eurovision, unless it is hosting it).

The very idea that the Israeli competitors would, like an Olympian from a disgraced nation, choose to compete as an independent, not associated with their country, is absolutely absurd. The entire point of their participation is based on the idea that they are representing their country, literally on behalf of their government. Your hypothetical turns this into an abstract that is shorn of the details that actually matter.


But if we are to accept generalities then, yes, it is perfectly acceptable for an individual to lose opportunity because of the actions of their nation, even if they disagree with those actions. For example, the Israeli government, funding this little propaganda exercise, has repeatedly argued that everybody in Gaza bears responsibility for the Oct. attack, and they all must be punished. This is not mere talk, because this desire has been enacted by, at a minimum, a blanket siege in the region. While Israel has decided that children should not be allowed food because they are Palestinian, you want to have a conversation as to whether an Israeli should be deprived of the right to run propaganda for their country in a singing competition. I hope you see the asymmetry in these two things. Which in itself is a side note: If your abstract moral position held, there would never be a moral justification for sanctions or for war, both of which affect all individuals of nations irrespective of their beliefs.
firstly I merely having a discussion with you my friend I'm neither being disingenuous not obtuse
Is it not possible for people who have maybe differing views to have a sensible conversation without resorting to calling others certain things?

right so the issue is with the particular activity/event in question - if that event is one that normally would amount to representation not of one self but rather the nation one's nationality lies then that would be an issue

I didn't know Israel's gov was running a campaign on their behalf

my friend this is a discussion on Eurovision because the topic is about Eurovision and an Israeli competitor and whether an Israeli competitor should be allowed to compete - if you want to discuss the intricacies of the Israel/Palestine conflict this isn't the appropriate place to have those discussions

"yes, it is perfectly acceptable for an individual to lose opportunity because of the actions of their nation, even if they disagree with those actions." I think I disagree with this statement most of all because then we are coming to the slippery slope of we are not judged by our own actions but rather the actions of the group/class that we are associated with...

Because in one sense isn't that the exact same argument that Trump is using for deportations (and other things) that you belong to a certain class of people and therefore we (the US gov) will find a way to get rid of you???

whether a country sanctions another is a completely separate issue to the one discussion at hand no?
 
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i was very clear though? again, it does not matter who the artist is, no one is saying yuval raphael should not be allowed to compete in eurovision. what everyone is saying is, israel should not be allowed to compete.

the nuance here is, when you compete in the eurovision you are never competing as an individual, for your own name. you are explicitly competing under the flag of the country you represent. people and the media won't say "selfmate won the eurovision", they'll say "this country won the eurovision". in that same vein, notice how this thread doesn't say "people are petitioning to ban yuval raphael from eurovision", it clearly says they want israel to be banned.

if this was the voice, and an israeli performer is competing, people would not petition for them to be disqualified purely on the basis of their ethnicity because they are not there representing israel. unless they explicitly glorify the genocide, of course, in which case they are sending a political message in support of israel.

really, @catonkatonk worded the issue in such an eloquent and intelligent way. 100% what they are saying
right so again I just want to clarify in your opinion the issue is never with an individual but that any individual that falls under a problematic country loses their rights to compete (specifically UNDER THAT COUNTRY's banner) but they can choose (if able) to compete as an independent whether Eurovision or Olympics or otherwise?
 

Soogi

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right so again I just want to clarify in your opinion the issue is never with an individual but that any individual that falls under a problematic country loses their rights to compete (specifically UNDER THAT COUNTRY's banner) but they can choose (if able) to compete as an independent whether Eurovision or Olympics or otherwise?
yep, people have been saying this over and over. i don't understand why you're overcomplicating something that's quite simple to understand.

competing under a country’s flag is not a right. performing isn’t a right. participating isn’t a right. these are all privileges, and those privileges depend entirely on whether the country itself is qualified to participate. if the country is not qualified, those privileges don’t exist. and people don't want israel to be qualified due to their crimes. it's about global accountability, framing it around individual artists is disingenuous.

meanwhile, palestinians have a right to freedom and safety.
 
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yep, people have been saying this over and over. i don't understand why you're overcomplicating something that's quite simple to understand.

competing under a country’s flag is not a right. performing isn’t a right. participating isn’t a right. these are all privileges, and those privileges depend entirely on whether the country itself is qualified to participate. if the country is not qualified, those privileges don’t exist. and people don't want israel to be qualified due to their crimes. it's about global accountability, framing it around individual artists is disingenuous.

meanwhile, palestinians have a right to freedom and safety.
I'm just trying to understand by clarify a point my friend not complicating things since obviously not everyone agrees on certain points.

again the issue isn't Israel vs Palestine and never was - that's not the topic of this discussion

why is it disingenuous since the topic you are trying have an issue with seems to be very different to the topic at hand. Again if you want to have a discussion about Israel vs Palestine then go have it - this thread and forum may not be so appropriate for that
 

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I'm just trying to understand by clarify a point my friend not complicating things since obviously not everyone agrees on certain points.

again the issue isn't Israel vs Palestine and never was - that's not the topic of this discussion

why is it disingenuous since the topic you are trying have an issue with seems to be very different to the topic at hand. Again if you want to have a discussion about Israel vs Palestine then go have it - this thread and forum may not be so appropriate for that
respectfully, HUH?? :jisoosmh:
the whole reason people want israel banned is quite literally purely due to the genocide israel is committing on the palestinian people, and my points this entire time has been on topic. anyway, im removing myself from this discussion cause its frankly getting very frustrating and i've said all i want to say
 
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respectfully, HUH?? :jisoosmh:
the whole reason people want israel banned is quite literally purely due to the genocide israel is committing on the palestinian people, and my points this entire time has been on topic. anyway, im removing myself from this discussion cause its frankly getting very frustrating and i've said all i want to say
well again I don't disagree with you on that but that issue is not the topic for discussion right?
no one is arguing against any of that but you keep bringing it up
I never once brought up Palestinian or atrocities or anything of that kind prior to your initial comment to me whereas you have on multiple occasions

my discussion was and is always limited to (well at least initially to Eurovision and then to other events/activities and sports) and participants under certain countries

I apologize if I said anything untoward my friend
 
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I think people are responding to you in this way because you want to extricate the current situation of its current context and discuss it in terms of abstract principle.

I think this is disingenuous, because this is commonly a disingenuously used tool*. Perhaps you are not engaging in rhetorical games and are sincerely questioning, but at the same time, the question has been asked and answered: Nobody is saying that Israelis shouldn't compete, but that Israel as a country should not compete. In some international competitions, you represent both yourself and your nation. In many international competitions, you can choose to represent only yourself. Nobody would have a problem with the latter.

Even if you're on maximum neoliberalism brainworms and believe 100% in the atomised individual, it's easy to understand the argument:
When I am at work, I represent my company, and when people are unhappy with the company, they get to be angry at me, and I don't get to say, "Well, it wasn't me that made that mistake". But I am also free to actually quit and therefore no longer be expected to listen to that. Each of us has two modes: When we're at work, we represent our company. When we go home, we represent ourselves. We can choose to represent our country if we believe in it or want to reform it, or we can say we don't want anything to do with it.

So the conversation, actually, is whether Israel, as a nation, should be allowed to compete. If you don't want to have that conversation, fair enough, but that is kind of what we're talking about there.



In respect to your response to me, no, your analogy falls completely flat. Sanctions are a punishment, collectively applied. And sanctions are a bargaining tool in order to extract a concession. It is understood that if a country is behaving in a way that other countries to not like, then that country can be excluded from trade. As a consequence, every individual in that country suffers. It is different to whatever analogy you want to bring, because the sanction is conditional: If the targeted country stops its "misbehaviour", the sanctions are lifted.
Likewise, in my time, the United Nations launched joint military operations into nations it perceived as infringing on the rights of others.
That is the context to which I can say, yes, I actually have no problem with individuals losing opportunity because of their country. If I had a problem with that, then, in order to be morally consistent, I would have to oppose all sanctions and I would have to oppose all wars in history. I generally don't like sanctions and I generally don't like war, but it is apparent to me that both things are unavoidable in certain circumstances.

It is the moral philosophy of nations that people deserve to lose their lives (in war) because of the country they were born into. How absurd it is, then, to be talking about whether or not they deserve to sing in competitions?

The remainder of this post is sidebar regarding principle in general. Skip if you want.
*I will always come at these sorts of issues from a materialist lens. I do not care about words and professed ideas. I care about the actual actions. From this lens, principle itself is a tool used to bludgeon. This is obvious in the way that principles are rarely consistently held. They are selectively applied. There's a great example right here:
"Eurovision is not a political event and is about bringing people together" -> Eurovision expels Russia from the competition -> "Eurovision is not a political event and is about bringing people together"
It doesn't take a particularly close read of history to see that inconsistency is the rule rather than the exception when it comes to principles. It also doesn't take a particularly intelligent person to see the gulf between the ideals that politicians profess to have and the actions which they take. And with those two things in mind, it's obvious why politicians (and others) would rather be judged on the things they said than what they did. I'm too old to play that game. Sorry.
Your principle - and correct me if I'm wrong - is that the actions of a nation should have no bearing whatsoever on the international rights and privileges of its members. That principle is not inconsistent with anything most people have said in this thread. But I don't agree with it, and I believe 99% of the people in the world do not agree with it. I'm not sure you actually agree with it if you actually stopped and thought about it. Or is it your argument that the allied powers should not have gone to war against Germany because it would have inevitably resulted in the deaths of Germans who were opposed to the Nazi regime? Dying is far more extreme than not being able to compete in a singing competition, after all.
The irony of course if that if you decided to take a much less abstract view, you'd see that it is very extremely likely that the competitor in question does not share your view, given they are freely and enthusiastically representing a nation carrying out collective punishment. And yet, they would profess to have the same principle of you. Only selectively applied. What about you? Selectively applied or universal?
I'll be straight: I only have one principle. If you live by the sword, you can die by it. Israel can be disqualified on the basis of its own logic, its own principles. There is no other discussion to even be had about that.
 

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