who else thinks kpop has become too competitive? (1 Viewer)

[looloo_2]

Kpop moves so fast nowadays, i feel like most groups from smaller companies don't have a chance to succeed in this industry without the proper funds or connections, it's so unfair. i'm not saying every kpop group from a small company is relatively unsuccessful but why does it feel like the 2020s has less groups from smaller companies to make it to the mainstream? or even receive a little bit of attention? to me, i think if a group from a smaller company has a trainee who was on a popular survival show, a reputable person who used to work for a large company as the ceo of said company, having a trainee from a large company, or even a kid from a rich family, there'll be a article made about them predebut or at debut telling people to support this group when they debut or on their next album. Yes, we have tik tok and other social media platforms, and yes it's possible for kpop groups from smaller agencies to earn viral attention from a clip. however, in the world in short form video content, people who scroll on their vertical screens would rarely remember the name of that idol who did that one viral thing as the world "viral" on tiktok is temporarily and would change into the next viral thing in the next few weeks. People who scroll on tiktok scroll passively, they're just scrolling for the sake of it. They'll come across a five second clip of an idol doing a stupid face and then just scroll down to the next thing. i just listen to kpop for the music aspect and i sometimes don't go out of my way to watch content on social media or youtube about a group unless i want to learn about a group's background, but this post is still an important discussion to have you think?

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If you scour the internet, you'll find a lot of kpop groups that are underrated or nugu and yet, they have music videos of a very high budget, genuinely talented and skilled members with amazing songs that even rival the mainstream groups. When you look at these reasons, you get so annoyed when that group isn't in the mainstream because the yg, sm, jyp and hybe seems to have a foothold on the kpop industry. obviously, any group they debut under their labels and subsidiaries would earn hype as they have a name connected to them. same goes for survival show groups. if survival shows don't air on the big three networks or don't have a reputable name attached to them, the final lineup could potentially be an underrated group. I know there are people who are knee deep into kpop and would know what i'm talking about. i've been out of the loop that i don't really bother to keep up with kpop anymore but yeah.

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people feel the same way, there's a lot of fans who openly support underrated or nugu groups hoping for them to get their genuine mainstream breakthrough. When a group from a small agency does get in the mainstream spotlight, it's usually for a bad reason. I remember hearing about the group fanatics and their infamous live stream incident. one of the members was heard getting slapped in the face off camera but you could still hear the impact and the members going nervous instantly. i should also mention that the camera for the livestream was placed in an awkward position where you can see the girls legs on display. One of the members gave the members jackets to cover up their legs and this is what prompted that slap. it was the only time the group got mainstream attention. The boy group omega x is another example. omega x are a group composed of members from inactive and disbanded groups that never got a chance of mainstream success. While they did attract some attention for their concept, the group found themselves in a steaming pile of shit when it was revealed that their ceo was treating the boys like total trash and there's a leaked clip of them being yelled at an hotel and the ceo putting her hands on one of the members as he was having a panic attack. to make matters worse, it soon revealed that the boys were forced to perform while being infected with covid, subjected to physical abuse, forced drinking, sexual harassment and verbal slurs. All of this culminated in the group getting overnight recognition not for their music, but for the pain they went through. Luckily, the group won their lawsuit, terminated their contracts and was able to sign with a new agency that seems to respect them and treat them like human beings. Just because nugu group gets genuine spotlight for these reasons doesn't equal people going out and buying their albums. Why would people go out and openly buy the albums to this group when their company was abusing them? i'm sure some fans pirated their music but you get what i am saying here.

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For any of those older kpop fans reading this, it was true that most groups under smaller companies were able to get some kind of attention right? like it didn't have to be explosive attention, but enough to put eyes on the group. Hmm, i feel like groups back then were able to chart low, but still gain some sort of momentum because people were listening to their music, they just didn't have a song on the top spot is all. Since social media wasn't prominent as it is today, smaller companies had to rely on songs going viral unexpectedly or one of the members going viral whatever reason, it was like putting luck in people unknowingly finding your music and the word getting out. kpop fans who are intense fans of groups from larger companies are used to seeing numbers in the millions, a kpop group from a small company selling 70k albums would be considered a disappointment in this landscape when it really isn't. nugu groups managing to sell albums in the double digits is nothing to scoff at and those are great numbers for a group under a small company. Groups from large companies also have millions of dollars that are being invested into them. I may be wrong here, but are kpop music videos today are millions of dollars and not just under a million to make at least a decent looking music video? i've seen a person online say how they miss when music videos had simple sets in them that didn't seem to expensive for the production team. they also wore fitting outfits for the mvs and it looked like it wouldn't be too much for a smaller company to afford. all you needed was a production team, good stylists and charisma to deliver a good music video. To a smaller company, seeing how all of these big agencies spend more than a few million on music videos to include expensive productions such as flying groups out to foreign countries and filming around literal luxury properties just for a single music video pressues these companies to do the same thing, but since they aren't financially stable for that, they have to settle for ignorant fans calling their music videos "cheap".​

 

[Going_Under]

Yes yes! I agree; I feel like the bands aren't really competitive... it's more the fans competing against each other

 

[looloo_2]

Yes yes! I agree; I feel like the bands aren't really competitive... it's more the fans competing against each other

fans competing against each other 😂 more than ever it seems. fans would have a debate with another group over a hairstyle or lipstick or whatever

 

[Selfmate]

it's not different than the real world and no different from entertainment industries throughout the world

big companies have always dominated whether by force or market power or buying out the little guy etc etc - there is a reason why everybody in SK wants their sons and daughters to go to Seoul National University just like they all want to work at chaebols.

I've always said the biggest determinate of one's success as a kpop idol is the company one is from. That isn't because those idols are harder working (not saying they are or they aren't), those idols aren't more talented, those idols aren't prettier, they don't necessarily have more star power - it is solely because the bigger and more recognised the company the more the general public is willing to trust and give those kpop groups a chance and that is the biggest benefit of a group from a larger company.

If two kpop groups cb on the same day or work and one is named BP and one is named nugu group from nugu company - it is totally irrelevant if the nugu group can sing better or has a better song. I've said it before:

if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around does it still make a sound?
if a nugu group releases a great song but nobody listens to it - is it still a good song?

there are examples of when smaller groups do get big and sometimes it is as a result of the music - ie. cupid and 5050
however much more are when smaller groups go viral for non-music reasons - ie. EXID and Hani and Up and Down, Brave Girls and performing for the military, recently Rescene and Woni with "Geoje Yaho" meme. The major question is whether such success can sustain the group in the long term and generate more fans and cfs and revenue post virality

It also doesn't imply that a nugu group from a nugu company can never rise to the top. We literally have the best exampled in BTS - Big Hit and BTS were nugu as F*** however they slowly built up their brand and came up the kpop world to be the most successful group today. Further examples include BB and YGE (although I have seen that YGE wasn't nugu at that time but rather just niche)

 

[looloo_2]

it's not different than the real world and no different from entertainment industries throughout the world

big companies have always dominated whether by force or market power or buying out the little guy etc etc - there is a reason why everybody in SK wants their sons and daughters to go to Seoul National University just like they all want to work at chaebols.

I've always said the biggest determinate of one's success as a kpop idol is the company one is from. That isn't because those idols are harder working (not saying they are or they aren't), those idols aren't more talented, those idols aren't prettier, they don't necessarily have more star power - it is solely because the bigger and more recognised the company the more the general public is willing to trust and give those kpop groups a chance and that is the biggest benefit of a group from a larger company.

If two kpop groups cb on the same day or work and one is named BP and one is named nugu group from nugu company - it is totally irrelevant if the nugu group can sing better or has a better song. I've said it before:

if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is around does it still make a sound?
if a nugu group releases a great song but nobody listens to it - is it still a good song?

there are examples of when smaller groups do get big and sometimes it is as a result of the music - ie. cupid and 5050
however much more are when smaller groups go viral for non-music reasons - ie. EXID and Hani and Up and Down, Brave Girls and performing for the military, recently Rescene and Woni with "Geoje Yaho" meme. The major question is whether such success can sustain the group in the long term and generate more fans and cfs and revenue post virality

It also doesn't imply that a nugu group from a nugu company can never rise to the top. We literally have the best exampled in BTS - Big Hit and BTS were nugu as F*** however they slowly built up their brand and came up the kpop world to be the most successful group today. Further examples include BB and YGE (although I have seen that YGE wasn't nugu at that time but rather just niche)

i see what you mean, i know that kpop fans naturally trust the big 4 companies. timing also plays a part too. A nugu group can spend months preparing for a comeback that looks promising but if a group from a big company releases a teaser the next day, all eyes are naturally on them and not the nugu group that could've had a genuine chance at mainstream visibility.

this is so sad to think about. there are nugu groups with under 300,000 listeners that make great music but they aren't known. if i was a ceo of a small kpop company i wouldn't go through spending millions just for a single music video its not that serious honestly.

exid and brave girls are groups from the past generation. they were able to build up a fanbase and stay relevant for a few years. they had viral moments sure, but they were from smaller companies and i am pretty sure the companies they were under didn't have the same connections as the big three (at the time) to promote them, but i think these groups did well and built on their hype.


and you just proved my point with bigbang and bts! they were underdogs that slowly built their way up, and they did so when it was still common for most groups to achieve some sort of popularity only by word of mouth, unlike now when it's so hard for groups to have a natural rise to fame

 

[Selfmate]

i see what you mean, i know that kpop fans naturally trust the big 4 companies. timing also plays a part too. A nugu group can spend months preparing for a comeback that looks promising but if a group from a big company releases a teaser the next day, all eyes are naturally on them and not the nugu group that could've had a genuine chance at mainstream visibility.

this is so sad to think about. there are nugu groups with under 300,000 listeners that make great music but they aren't known. if i was a ceo of a small kpop company i wouldn't go through spending millions just for a single music video its not that serious honestly.

exid and brave girls are groups from the past generation. they were able to build up a fanbase and stay relevant for a few years. they had viral moments sure, but they were from smaller companies and i am pretty sure the companies they were under didn't have the same connections as the big three (at the time) to promote them, but i think these groups did well and built on their hype.


and you just proved my point with bigbang and bts! they were underdogs that slowly built their way up, and they did so when it was still common for most groups to achieve some sort of popularity only by word of mouth, unlike now when it's so hard for groups to have a natural rise to fame

obviously the best way for a smaller act these days to get more popular is to go viral and try to maintain that virality. That would be the best way to rise to the top or if not top then at least gain enough of a fandom for them to have a relatively successful career.

Slight counterpoint that one should give new groups more time to develop to see if they can rise to the top - as we discussed DSP fell from the top so group or company can eventually rise to the top just as others can fall...

 

[Ahsoka]

I feel like there’s a lot of factors here.

1. The market is very over saturated, even being from the top 4 isn’t enough to guarantee overwhelming success like before. And now there are so many sub labels of the big 4 to saturate the market more.
2. On top of that, longevity of groups has massively increased, adding to saturation now that reaching the end of your 7 year contract without disbanding isn’t abnormal.
3. I also disagree about the big 4 being your only chance now. There are so many big groups now from mid size companies (IVE, Gidle, Ateez). And some groups that are smaller but still have/had a pretty stable core audience (Xlov, StayC, Boy Next Door, The Boyz, KISS of Life for a time). And now some nugu companies get attention when a popular artist leaves their big 4 label to sign with a small indie one, which is also something that never happened in the past. Huge artists didn’t leave huge established companies to sign with a small label before, they either stayed in their company or left the industry.

So I agree that the saturation means there’s more nugu groups no one hears of, especially when some companies seem like they’re trying to capitalize on recent interest in kpop without having a long term plan. But I honestly feel like in terms of companies, now is pretty good in terms of mid size companies having options, and even small companies now that established artists sometimes opt for small ones. So I disagree that it’s such a stark big 4 or bust, especially compared to the past.

 

[looloo_2]

I feel like there’s a lot of factors here.

1. The market is very over saturated, even being from the top 4 isn’t enough to guarantee overwhelming success like before. And now there are so many sub labels of the big 4 to saturate the market more.
2. On top of that, longevity of groups has massively increased, adding to saturation now that reaching the end of your 7 year contract without disbanding isn’t abnormal.
3. I also disagree about the big 4 being your only chance now. There are so many big groups now from mid size companies (IVE, Gidle, Ateez). And some groups that are smaller but still have/had a pretty stable core audience (Xlov, StayC, Boy Next Door, The Boyz, KISS of Life for a time). And now some nugu companies get attention when a popular artist leaves their big 4 label to sign with a small indie one, which is also something that never happened in the past. Huge artists didn’t leave huge established companies to sign with a small label before, they either stayed in their company or left the industry.

So I agree that the saturation means there’s more nugu groups no one hears of, especially when some companies seem like they’re trying to capitalize on recent interest in kpop without having a long term plan. But I honestly feel like in terms of companies, now is pretty good in terms of mid size companies having options, and even small companies now that established artists sometimes opt for small ones. So I disagree that it’s such a stark big 4 or bust, especially compared to the past.

the first few groups mentioned gidle, ive and stayc. Gidle are under cube entertainment, a mid tier label that's well known and has been dominant since the 2nd gen. mentioning ive proves my point about a member having preexisting clout. Even though starship are a mid tier label with connects to kakao entertainment, they aren't a small company and has had popular groups like sistar, monsta x, boyfriend and wjsn under their belts before ive. also wonyoung and yujin were in izone predebut. Stayc are the only group you mentioned that are under a small company, however, the ceo is black eyed pilsung, a famous producer who has worked with twice i believe. So the girls had little bit of a headstart. you mentioned boynextdoor and boynextdoor are affiliated with HYBE, which immediately gave them that financial backing and popularity before debut.



when a popular idol transitions to a smaller company for solo promotions, they bring an established fandom with them that is very different from what i am talking about. i mean a brand new group under a smaller label starting from zero. Yeah, you can say it'll give that group a little bit of attention but more often than not , just because a popular idol is under that same label doesn't mean that a new rookie group would achieve automatic success. Unless the company is smart with their money and tries their best to promote them but you get the idea

 

[Yelena_Belova]

I actually agree with you, and it makes me sad to see it happen. I listen to plenty of groups, both nugu ones and those from one of the Big Four companies. For groups I stan, I stan/used to stan BLACKPINK, DreamNote, ILY:1, Stray Kids and Twice. Obviously, BLACKPINK, Stray Kids and Twice are more mainstream, while DreamNote and ILY:1 were much more nugu. Unfortunately, ILY:1 disbanded about halfway into their contracts, which sucks. I loved their concepts, voices and songs. I'll forever stand by the fact that they didn't have a single bad song. I was devastated to see them disbanded, and I still am.

Unfortunately, the limited connections weren't enough to save them as far as gaining recognition or a fanbase. For example, Ririka used to be a contestant on the survival show that created NiziU, and was one of the most popular members before the official debut of the group because of that. Allegedly, Ara was friends with Jeongin before she debuted, and there are pictures of them at their high school graduation together. Neither of them have spoken about it as far as I know though, likely for obvious reasons of wanting to avoid dating scandals. Four out of the six girls were on Girls Planet together.

DreamNote debuted in November 2018, and since it has been over seven years and they remained a nugu group the whole time. They disbanded over half of a year ago, last November. Another group with lovely voices, a great concept, amazing songs, and yet they never truly broke out. They did briefly go viral for their song "Ghost" being so amazing and such a perfect Halloween song, but their next few comebacks made a lot less buzz. I love nugu groups, and I wish more people gave them a chance, but it is a bit scary and painful. I typically love their songs and the members, but as a fan, it is a lot of work to get into a new group, and with nugu groups, I never know for sure how long they will last before they are gone. I respect the heck out of accounts that promote nugu groups, such as (I think) @nugu_promoter on Twiiter/X, that would always post about nugu girl groups and their comebacks, album sales, lineup changes, concerts, ect. I'm so glad some groups are able to have a more stable/less uncertain future by being under the Big Four, however, I wish every idol was granted that luxury. Unfortunately, the world is not so kind in that regard.

 

[looloo_2]

I actually agree with you, and it makes me sad to see it happen. I listen to plenty of groups, both nugu ones and those from one of the Big Four companies. For groups I stan, I stan/used to stan BLACKPINK, DreamNote, ILY:1, Stray Kids and Twice. Obviously, BLACKPINK, Stray Kids and Twice are more mainstream, while DreamNote and ILY:1 were much more nugu. Unfortunately, ILY:1 disbanded about halfway into their contracts, which sucks. I loved their concepts, voices and songs. I'll forever stand by the fact that they didn't have a single bad song. I was devastated to see them disbanded, and I still am.

Unfortunately, the limited connections weren't enough to save them as far as gaining recognition or a fanbase. For example, Ririka used to be a contestant on the survival show that created NiziU, and was one of the most popular members before the official debut of the group because of that. Allegedly, Ara was friends with Jeongin before she debuted, and there are pictures of them at their high school graduation together. Neither of them have spoken about it as far as I know though, likely for obvious reasons of wanting to avoid dating scandals. Four out of the six girls were on Girls Planet together.

DreamNote debuted in November 2018, and since it has been over seven years and they remained a nugu group the whole time. They disbanded over half of a year ago, last November. Another group with lovely voices, a great concept, amazing songs, and yet they never truly broke out. They did briefly go viral for their song "Ghost" being so amazing and such a perfect Halloween song, but their next few comebacks made a lot less buzz. I love nugu groups, and I wish more people gave them a chance, but it is a bit scary and painful. I typically love their songs and the members, but as a fan, it is a lot of work to get into a new group, and with nugu groups, I never know for sure how long they will last before they are gone. I respect the heck out of accounts that promote nugu groups, such as (I think) @nugu_promoter on Twiiter/X, that would always post about nugu girl groups and their comebacks, album sales, lineup changes, concerts, ect. I'm so glad some groups are able to have a more stable/less uncertain future by being under the Big Four, however, I wish every idol was granted that luxury. Unfortunately, the world is not so kind in that regard.

same...i wish all nugu groups are granted decent recognition. it hurts when you get into a nugu group but you feel like you can't fully enjoy their activities because you'll never know when they'll disband. props to nugu promoter on twitter who goes out of their way to promote nugu groups. a lot of fans miss out on a lot when they neglect nugu groups. nugu groups are known to have genuinely talented members and have music on the same level as mainstream groups. i've seen people say that so many times. i feel like nugu groups hit a dead end during covid restrictions. a lot of them weren't able to perform at smaller venues and do events due to how crazy everything was. i feel like it hasn't been the same ever since. thanks for providing some examples of groups. ILY:1 is an interesting one as the members had predebut visibility but even that couldn't save them. I guess because they were under a small agency which didn't have the funds or resources to properly promote them

 

[LoveYooShaSha]

I'm mildly fascinated by this topic tho I wasn't into kpop until 2018(I slept on SNSD for 9 years after hearing/watching Gee in 2009).

I just think it's not necessarily the non-big 4 companies NOT promoting/budgeting strategies which are to blame/at fault: sometimes songs just don't hit with the audience n tats just life: the fact tat gfriend with 'Me gustas tu'; EXID with 'Up n Down'; Brave Girls with 'Rollin''; Momoland with 'Bhoom Bhoom'; OMG with 'DolphinNonstop'; 50 50 with 'Cupid' went viral n had different trajectories later(OK only Momoland flopped rlly out of those). But thereafter gp stopped paying attention n their success or lack of depended on fan support ig. Gidle is interesting cos they seemed to explode after Queendom 1(along with OMG somewat; yet MMM the eventual winners only slightly increased sales immediately after; I dint chk after ard 2021 or since).

So it's more luck of the draw for non-big 4 (also big 4 doesnt guarantee long term longevity or high success ie fx(dont hate me; i love krystal n all of em), 2NE1(they ended ignominiously it seems to me), ITZY(seem to hv hit a streak of decline since sneakers-they don't seem to me different much but the prevailing opinion seems ungood)).

Theres only X billions of ppl n ZZ% listen/buy/stream kpop so there can only be so much 1 fan/person can support just it depends on wat FYP/in front of yr face so random luck plays its part. Even if 1 person listens to every song released in kpop every week; some will hit n some will miss.

I also don't see the main gist of this thread:
I watched the doc of the Beatles a few yrs ago n while interesting - the thing i rmbrd is they werent the be all n end all in 60s music(before i was born). There was Rolling Stones, Dylan, Simon n Garfunkel n many others. Some 1 hit wonders n some longer term.

in terms of kpop, there's also trot Lim Woo Young n other artistes so it's not just kpop in korea.

I think just focusing on nugu kpop groups thinking they're getting short end of the stick is just not being real. Iv read the lust of kpop(or just korea) debuts on wikipedia from 1990s-2029s(but not recently) n the sheer number is just unrealistic to imagine every single debutant or even many getting a significant audience or buzz(frex UNCHILD, YOUNG POSSE, izna, UNIS, n too many others I can't rmbr rn tat iv posted their music stages for my dailys) if companies were practical they'd save their money n buy HYBE stocks n shares instead but then the idols wouldn't hv their dreams even partially achieved. Its six of one n half a dozen of the other. The dream of kpop stardom is pulling teens/youth from USA/SEA/Jpn/Australia n other countries such tat supply n demand seems to hv endless youngsters auditioning for the smallest nugu companies hoping for a chance to achieve their dream. As long as the numbers remain to feed the kpop factory/machine the resultant success/nugu rate will be similar as now(no idea if western music is similar now, as I'm not well-versed but it seems country music is in resurgence based on my fleeting impression, there aren't any(or many) shows like korean music performance ones weekly to showcase new/veteran acts so tats one thing kpop acts hv going for them.

 

[Ahsoka]

the first few groups mentioned gidle, ive and stayc. Gidle are under cube entertainment, a mid tier label that's well known and has been dominant since the 2nd gen. mentioning ive proves my point about a member having preexisting clout. Even though starship are a mid tier label with connects to kakao entertainment, they aren't a small company and has had popular groups like sistar, monsta x, boyfriend and wjsn under their belts before ive. also wonyoung and yujin were in izone predebut. Stayc are the only group you mentioned that are under a small company, however, the ceo is black eyed pilsung, a famous producer who has worked with twice i believe. So the girls had little bit of a headstart. you mentioned boynextdoor and boynextdoor are affiliated with HYBE, which immediately gave them that financial backing and popularity before debut.



when a popular idol transitions to a smaller company for solo promotions, they bring an established fandom with them that is very different from what i am talking about. i mean a brand new group under a smaller label starting from zero. Yeah, you can say it'll give that group a little bit of attention but more often than not , just because a popular idol is under that same label doesn't mean that a new rookie group would achieve automatic success. Unless the company is smart with their money and tries their best to promote them but you get the idea

My point was that mid tier companies can do well now, not just big 4, since the impression I got from your original post was that only big 4 have any chance.

The part about a new company with a new group not being able to make it big immediately isn’t new, that’s how it’s always been. There may have been some niche cases where a first new group from a first company immediately made it big, especially first gen, but I can’t immediately think of any later ones at all. Even well known cases of nugu groups making it big were from cases where a company had preexisting experience, groups, money, and/or managers with lots of experience (BTS, Big Bang, BAP, EXID, Seventeen, Nuest, Gfriend).

But now a new company can get get some fame if they manage to get a established idol signing with them, which while being different than a new group is still an option that didn’t used to exist at all. So that’s actually a step closer in the right direction compared to the past, not the reverse.

 

[Selfmate]

also this from momoland's hyebin



@gone4good

 

[SOSOYOUNG]

Back in the days I never knew what Nugu Groups were until 2017 or whatever year.
I can't even find out new fresh groups because it comes under NUGU GROUPS
I just want to listen toooooooooooooooooo gooooooooooooodddddddd music that doesn't get trapped in this so-called "NUGU UPDATES!!!!"
I just knew the groups as newbies or newspaces. back in the days.

 

[RandAlThor]

Honestly there is only so much oxygen. Partly why Agencies are sooo draconian with the rules.
Its hard enough to gain traction without dumb avoidable errors.

Which makes agency f ups like lesserifim and Red Velvet so much harder to understand.