In your country, what is seen as the purpose of prisons? (1 Viewer)

[Ahsoka]

As someone from the US it’s always been seen as punishment or revenge, but from what I’ve read it seems like that may not be the case everywhere

And one side that isn’t seen is the corporation side, to them the purpose of prisons is also a way to get money and free or cheap labor

 

[Belgizen]

free hotel

 

[Ahsoka]

free hotel

That does happen in the US too, particularly for former prisoners. They leave prison and feel stuck. They’re unaccustomed to normal human society, finding a job is very hard for them because of their conviction, so rather than be starving and homeless they commit another crime to at least get somewhere to stay and food to eat. Sure the place to stay is horrible and barely fit for humans and the food is garbage with no nutrition but it’s something.

 

[Flaneur]

Punishment

 

[Belgizen]

That does happen in the US too, particularly for former prisoners. They leave prison and feel stuck. They’re unaccustomed to normal human society, finding a job is very hard for them because of their conviction, so rather than be starving and homeless they commit another crime to at least get somewhere to stay and food to eat. Sure the place to stay is horrible and barely fit for humans and the food is garbage with no nutrition but it’s something.

i mean, i can't blame them
here, they have their own tvs

 

[athenaaa]

Rehabilitation and justice (although thats not always the case, it’s just what we preech)

 

[Ahsoka]

i mean, i can't blame them
here, they have their own tvs

Here you’re not even guaranteed AC in summer. Even in the hottest states we have. I think tvs can exist but I don’t know how common that really is, at least for personal ones.

 

[Belgizen]

Here you’re not even guaranteed AC in summer. Even in the hottest states we have. I think tvs can exist but I don’t know how common that really is, at least for personal ones.

I'm an avid 60 days in watcher
usually there's one in the day room

 

[Ahsoka]

I'm an avid 60 days in watcher
usually there's one in the day room

Yeah it does sound like the day room would have one. But as someone who has had the experience of being in a place with one tv in the day room it’s obviously not as nice as having a tv in your home outside of prison. Way fewer options and you can’t necessarily pick what you want to watch.

Also idk about them but I’d take ac over a shared tv any day Much more important

 

[Belgizen]

Yeah it does sound like the day room would have one. But as someone who has had the experience of being in a place with one tv in the day room it’s obviously not as nice as having a tv in your home outside of prison. Way fewer options and you can’t necessarily pick what you want to watch.

Also idk about them but I’d take ac over a shared tv any day Much more important

i couldn't miss the internet
yu wouldn't know what your bias has been up to!

 

[RandAlThor]

i don't think they know.
That's the problem.
if it were punishment then make it HELL on earth true hard labor day in day out no comforts at all.
Or i guess a true Hobbesian environment simalar to so many sci fi movies just throw em all in the 'pit ' and keep em there.. ( which is just silly kinder to kill em all)
if it rehab teach real skills ( but if folks dont want to or think they can make more you can not change em)
if its just storage well that is mostly what we got. Its a much like a Hobbesian sub culture. the strong prey upon the weak and ppl band together for strength.
At the end of the day ideally (baring wrongful convictions of true innocents) folks have made choices that show they are not fit to live with others until they change.
Most seem to not want to change, and i get it change is hard and they f up and have a perma mark on them.

OFC a problem with the harsher options is they warp the watchers/guards what ever.

I am not in favor of storage. That ppl get to live in any level of comfort after preying on others, and then we have to pay to keep em housed is jut annoying.

 

[Ahsoka]

i don't think they know.
That's the problem.
if it were punishment then make it HELL on earth true hard labor day in day out no comforts at all.
Or i guess a true Hobbesian environment simalar to so many sci fi movies just throw em all in the 'pit ' and keep em there.. ( which is just silly kinder to kill em all)
if it rehab teach real skills ( but if folks dont want to or think they can make more you can not change em)
if its just storage well that is mostly what we got. Its a much like a Hobbesian sub culture. the strong prey upon the weak and ppl band together for strength.
At the end of the day ideally (baring wrongful convictions of true innocents) folks have made choices that show they are not fit to live with others until they change.
Most seem to not want to change, and i get it change is hard and they f up and have a perma mark on them.

OFC a problem with the harsher options is they warp the watchers/guards what ever.

I am not in favor of storage. That ppl get to live in any level of comfort after preying on others, and then we have to pay to keep em housed is jut annoying.

I mean, I think many people would agree that there’s a limit as to what horrors you can expose someone to as “punishment”. Otherwise the Nazis and Japanese were better people than we give them credit for (still not good people, but it would take somewhat of a stain off both of those countries in WW2). Especially when you consider jail isnt packed with murderers and rapists. After all, almost half of people in this statistic are there because of drugs. Don’t know about you but torture seems like a bit of a stretch in that case.

BOP Statistics: Inmate Offenses

www.bop.gov

As for killing them all I don’t see as being reasonable ever for almost anyone. After all, what happens when the person you killed is found to be innocent after all? Kind of a slippery slope.

Some other countries use rehab and it works well and is more humane let’s be real. The way we have it, where guards can use violence against prisoners unprovoked, do you think that will teach a violent offender that violence is wrong?

As for the making decisions showing they aren’t fit to live with humans I don’t see that either. Let’s take drug offenses again, some will affect other people yeah but will the majority of those people be a danger to society? And will virtually forced labor teach them how to curb their drug habits and make them more capable to live a normal life? After all, the inmates are paid little to nothing generally, and often required to. Which is also kind of eh when you consider how that incentivizes the prisons to incarcerate more prisoners. They love cheap or free labor after all.

 

[RandAlThor]

I mean, I think many people would agree that there’s a limit as to what horrors you can expose someone to as “punishment”. Otherwise the Nazis and Japanese were better people than we give them credit for (still not good people, but it would take somewhat of a stain off both of those countries in WW2). Especially when you consider jail isnt packed with murderers and rapists. After all, almost half of people in this statistic are there because of drugs. Don’t know about you but torture seems like a bit of a stretch in that case.

BOP Statistics: Inmate Offenses

www.bop.gov

As for killing them all I don’t see as being reasonable ever for almost anyone. After all, what happens when the person you killed is found to be innocent after all? Kind of a slippery slope.

Some other countries use rehab and it works well and is more humane let’s be real. The way we have it, where guards can use violence against prisoners unprovoked, do you think that will teach a violent offender that violence is wrong?

As for the making decisions showing they aren’t fit to live with humans I don’t see that either. Let’s take drug offenses again, some will affect other people yeah but will the majority of those people be a danger to society? And will virtually forced labor teach them how to curb their drug habits and make them more capable to live a normal life? After all, the inmates are paid little to nothing generally, and often required to. Which is also kind of eh when you consider how that incentivizes the prisons to incarcerate more prisoners. They love cheap or free labor after all.

Agreed the systems we have suck and are pretty corrupt. Many times the law is a game for those running it just like sports. And they figuratively go out to dinner afterwards together and tally the score.

I dont have teh answers just the frustration of a system that does not protect the innocent nor seek to stop the guilty. Just keep itself in power.

even if we separate out the drug ppl. the scope of teh problem is huge. by your own admission at least half are are a danger and thats just the ppl they have in custody. that's pretty packed. and the drug convictions are a false indicator since teh lazy prosecutor's just go for teh low hanging fruit.
Kinda like how they will say crime is down ... but they just stopped arresting ppl its not hard to get smaller numbers whey ya just wave your hands.

i get it ppl want to do drugs.

prohibition should have taught everyone that if ppl want stuff, figure they will find out a way to get it (if a market exists someone will fill it). Its a dumb idea to force it underground and teach people to be criminal's. That this law or that one does not apply to them.

Drug offences are not even stealth violence its just a layer or 2 away. its like wearing blood diamonds they dont see the smoke fire and corpses just shinny rocks. Unless the argument is that the drugs just spontaneously appear. Every one of those people is a part of the problem from human trafficked drugs to towns laid waste in Mexico Columbia ect.

So bad thing happen to many ppl to get those fun loving drugs to people. So i am less than sympathetic
Change the laws, but unless its postulated that the drug offenders did not intend to get/use teh drugs ( which does happen with entrapment ect) then the ppl there are stuck.

The countries using rehab are tiny and the percentages of the pop are also tiny.
for almost hundred years we have taught ppl its ok to be lawbreakers. housing ppl has become another big government funded money sink.

i dont want to rehab killers rapists kidnapers trafficker's robbers ect supposed white collar criminals like Bernie Madoff who stole ppls life savings. By their own actions and choices. They have proved that they do not belong with the rest of us. While the kind part of me would like to help ppl out the risk of one more victim erases that feeling just like the thought of what if one innocent person gets executed fuels the anti death pen ppl. and Given recidivism rates v executions. i think the numbers are on my side.

i am willing to show the criminals who have taken what cannot or will not be restored just as much mercy as they showed their victims which is none.

let them spend the rest of their lives digging holes and filling them up 16-18 hours a day.

 

[Ahsoka]

Agreed the systems we have suck and are pretty corrupt. Many times the law is a game for those running it just like sports. And they figuratively go out to dinner afterwards together and tally the score.

I dont have teh answers just the frustration of a system that does not protect the innocent nor seek to stop the guilty. Just keep itself in power.

even if we separate out the drug ppl. the scope of teh problem is huge. by your own admission at least half are are a danger and thats just the ppl they have in custody. that's pretty packed. and the drug convictions are a false indicator since teh lazy prosecutor's just go for teh low hanging fruit.
Kinda like how they will say crime is down ... but they just stopped arresting ppl its not hard to get smaller numbers whey ya just wave your hands.

i get it ppl want to do drugs.

prohibition should have taught everyone that if ppl want stuff, figure they will find out a way to get it (if a market exists someone will fill it). Its a dumb idea to force it underground and teach people to be criminal's. That this law or that one does not apply to them.

Drug offences are not even stealth violence its just a layer or 2 away. its like wearing blood diamonds they dont see the smoke fire and corpses just shinny rocks. Unless the argument is that the drugs just spontaneously appear. Every one of those people is a part of the problem from human trafficked drugs to towns laid waste in Mexico Columbia ect.

So bad thing happen to many ppl to get those fun loving drugs to people. So i am less than sympathetic
Change the laws, but unless its postulated that the drug offenders did not intend to get/use teh drugs ( which does happen with entrapment ect) then the ppl there are stuck.

The countries using rehab are tiny and the percentages of the pop are also tiny.
for almost hundred years we have taught ppl its ok to be lawbreakers. housing ppl has become another big government funded money sink.

i dont want to rehab killers rapists kidnapers trafficker's robbers ect supposed white collar criminals like Bernie Madoff who stole ppls life savings. By their own actions and choices. They have proved that they do not belong with the rest of us. While the kind part of me would like to help ppl out the risk of one more victim erases that feeling just like the thought of what if one innocent person gets executed fuels the anti death pen ppl. and Given recidivism rates v executions. i think the numbers are on my side.

i am willing to show the criminals just as much mercy as they showed their victims which is none.

let them spend the rest of their lives digging holes and filling them up 16-18 hours a day.

I don’t count half with my idea of what’s a crime that isn’t a danger to people around them necessarily. It’s close I suppose but less than half. Not all crimes aside from drugs are an inherent danger to being in society imo.

If it’s wrong to do drugs because of what happens to the suppliers/places they’re from, then why is buying products from companies who treat their workers poorly, sometimes use slave labor, and definitely don’t pay them an okay wage fine? That’s not all that hard to find in our world, products like that are everywhere. And people eat their stuff up.

I agree the most dangerous probably need to be contained too matter what, just because of the risk. But I think viewing what should happen to all prisoners based on the crimes of the extremes is wrong, it’s not that black and white.

I also don’t think we need to switch to the rehab method tomorrow. But I feel like there must be some things we can take from their system without copying completely. They have different challenges than we do sometimes because of culture or size or population or so on. But I doubt that there isn’t anything we can take from their way that would improve the prison situation we have, which you agree is somewhat broken.

 

[Ahsoka]

Agreed the systems we have suck and are pretty corrupt. Many times the law is a game for those running it just like sports. And they figuratively go out to dinner afterwards together and tally the score.

I dont have teh answers just the frustration of a system that does not protect the innocent nor seek to stop the guilty. Just keep itself in power.

even if we separate out the drug ppl. the scope of teh problem is huge. by your own admission at least half are are a danger and thats just the ppl they have in custody. that's pretty packed. and the drug convictions are a false indicator since teh lazy prosecutor's just go for teh low hanging fruit.
Kinda like how they will say crime is down ... but they just stopped arresting ppl its not hard to get smaller numbers whey ya just wave your hands.

i get it ppl want to do drugs.

prohibition should have taught everyone that if ppl want stuff, figure they will find out a way to get it (if a market exists someone will fill it). Its a dumb idea to force it underground and teach people to be criminal's. That this law or that one does not apply to them.

Drug offences are not even stealth violence its just a layer or 2 away. its like wearing blood diamonds they dont see the smoke fire and corpses just shinny rocks. Unless the argument is that the drugs just spontaneously appear. Every one of those people is a part of the problem from human trafficked drugs to towns laid waste in Mexico Columbia ect.

So bad thing happen to many ppl to get those fun loving drugs to people. So i am less than sympathetic
Change the laws, but unless its postulated that the drug offenders did not intend to get/use teh drugs ( which does happen with entrapment ect) then the ppl there are stuck.

The countries using rehab are tiny and the percentages of the pop are also tiny.
for almost hundred years we have taught ppl its ok to be lawbreakers. housing ppl has become another big government funded money sink.

i dont want to rehab killers rapists kidnapers trafficker's robbers ect supposed white collar criminals like Bernie Madoff who stole ppls life savings. By their own actions and choices. They have proved that they do not belong with the rest of us. While the kind part of me would like to help ppl out the risk of one more victim erases that feeling just like the thought of what if one innocent person gets executed fuels the anti death pen ppl. and Given recidivism rates v executions. i think the numbers are on my side.

i am willing to show the criminals who have taken what cannot or will not be restored just as much mercy as they showed their victims which is none.

let them spend the rest of their lives digging holes and filling them up 16-18 hours a day.

Also with the execution part, right now the numbers are probably on your side. But how often do we even have executions? It seems to me that with such a small number finding out a person who was killed was innocent will be very difficult. But when you start using execution more and more, the chance that you kill one of those people just keeps getting higher no?

 

[Selfmate]

down under it's rehabilitation

 

[RandAlThor]

I don’t count half with my idea of what’s a crime that isn’t a danger to people around them necessarily. It’s close I suppose but less than half. Not all crimes aside from drugs are an inherent danger to being in society imo.

If it’s wrong to do drugs because of what happens to the suppliers/places they’re from, then why is buying products from companies who treat their workers poorly, sometimes use slave labor, and definitely don’t pay them an okay wage fine? That’s not all that hard to find in our world, products like that are everywhere. And people eat their stuff up.

I agree the most dangerous probably need to be contained too matter what, just because of the risk. But I think viewing what should happen to all prisoners based on the crimes of the extremes is wrong, it’s not that black and white.

I also don’t think we need to switch to the rehab method tomorrow. But I feel like there must be some things we can take from their system without copying completely. They have different challenges than we do sometimes because of culture or size or population or so on. But I doubt that there isn’t anything we can take from their way that would improve the prison situation we have, which you agree is somewhat broken.

its more than some what broken.

Course its wrong to do drugs. It was wrong to drink during prohibition and that only got us the mob with a permanent foothold.

The comparison between illegal acts and shopping at the store is pretty strawman ish. Folks are free to buy Nike/Apple if they want. fair wage is a slippery term and more of a talking point. Is a wage X fair if the purchasing power of that is similar to Y wage in the west?

I am sure someone has tried some rehab stuff in pilot programs.( gota be mad money out there for that kind of thing)

The problem it seems to me, is that when ppl work for change its on the extremes with big brushes.
Cash bail is bad so just catch and release. no matter that they do it again and again. its ok to steal all ya want if its under x dollars a time. what is that nonsense?

If people want to live together lets make it darn clear you can walk down the street go to church without being punched and the perp released ect.

my brush is admittedly wide as i count almost all property crimes with the personal crimes. And i have no mercy for crimes committed under the willful influence. My thought is its not a mitigating factor but an aggravating one.

God can handle mercy. The government needs to care about protecting its citizens. By definition those who seek to harm them are a proven danger.
Selectively applying the hammer as it were of justice only serves to erode trust and security more.

PPL complain that the US has too many ppl in prison but most of those ppl chose to be there, They chose to put themselves first and that is the price.
they may not like teh consequences of the choice but its pretty clear that most chose.

 

[RandAlThor]

Also with the execution part, right now the numbers are probably on your side. But how often do we even have executions? It seems to me that with such a small number finding out a person who was killed was innocent will be very difficult. But when you start using execution more and more, the chance that you kill one of those people just keeps getting higher no?

sure but how many ppl have to die get raped assaulted ect by ex cons or hell ppl ice/some local gov refused to hold. Pretty sure those are close to 100% percent innocents.
You could be wrong on death row an awful lot of times. Not that anyone wants that.

Me and my friends are none of us comfortable with the way governments have always taken the ability to kill people (their own or other nations as like a divine right) but at least with due process there is some buffer there. Not some one saying off with their head.

but in the US ideally the law is teh collective will of the people thru the elected official's, and those breaking it are choosing to do so. In practice that gets especially messy thus our confusion.

 

[uran]

Its a punishment buy finnish prison system emphasizes rehabilitation and reintergration with a focus on education and therapy

 

[Ahsoka]

its more than some what broken.

Course its wrong to do drugs. It was wrong to drink during prohibition and that only got us the mob with a permanent foothold.

The comparison between illegal acts and shopping at the store is pretty strawman ish. Folks are free to buy Nike/Apple if they want. fair wage is a slippery term and more of a talking point. Is a wage X fair if the purchasing power of that is similar to Y wage in the west?

I am sure someone has tried some rehab stuff in pilot programs.( gota be mad money out there for that kind of thing)

The problem it seems to me, is that when ppl work for change its on the extremes with big brushes.
Cash bail is bad so just catch and release. no matter that they do it again and again. its ok to steal all ya want if its under x dollars a time. what is that nonsense?

If people want to live together lets make it darn clear you can walk down the street go to church without being punched and the perp released ect.

my brush is admittedly wide as i count almost all property crimes with the personal crimes. And i have no mercy for crimes committed under the willful influence. My thought is its not a mitigating factor but an aggravating one.

God can handle mercy. The government needs to care about protecting its citizens. By definition those who seek to harm them are a proven danger.
Selectively applying the hammer as it were of justice only serves to erode trust and security more.

PPL complain that the US has too many ppl in prison but most of those ppl chose to be there, They chose to put themselves first and that is the price.
they may not like teh consequences of the choice but its pretty clear that most chose.

Of course it’s not a 1:1 thing with wage, if they work for $5 an hour and that allows them a reasonably comfortable life then we shouldn’t get pitchforks out and demand they receive our minimum wage. But are the cases of companies depending on outside labor by making workers work for very long hours with very minimal pay cases of that?

Rehab stuff may have been attempted. But I just don’t see why a for profit prison would want rehab. If they successfully rehab a drug addict for example, and they never use drugs again, they’ve more or less just lost potential profit. Maybe they want to do it out of the goodness of their hearts, but I doubt that tbh. So even if it’s attempted, I just don’t see how it would really work.

Yeah people do like extremes. I agree with that. And honestly I think that’s possibly partly why people are so much on one side or another with politics. They shout about the most extreme ideas, which pushes someone away if they lean a bit more on the other, because it’s just too radical. We’d probably get so much more done if people thought more about how gradual changes can be made for the better, to a level acceptable by both parties of people. And I agree this applies to the prison system, we can’t go from one extreme to another, it just wouldn’t work. But I do still think that there’s influence that can be taken from all kinds of places and applied gradually.

Anyways this is all pretty moot because of how prison is viewed in the US, which is what the original idea of the thread was. If everyone thinks prison is required to be miserable and sometimes inhumane because its supposed to be punishment, it wouldn’t really be easy to implement anything else. So no matter what I or others think about having rehab changes it would be hard for the majority of the population to agree. It just doesn’t fit the idea of what a prison is to them.