News Over 70 former Eurovision contestants have signed an open letter calling for Israel to be banned from this year’s contest (1 Viewer)

[Selfmate]

It's Eurovision, you are directly representing your country. Like that's the point. It's up to the singer's choice to choose how to represent their country. Some incorporate traditional elements into their songs (Greece 2024, Latvia 2025), some show it modernly (Sweden's pop machine), and Israel last year entered a song about October the 7th. That was changed obviously, the EBU didn't allow it. But the fact is you can't represent an ethnostate without being complicit.

I don't know much about eurovision or the participants or what song they incorporated
is the issue then not with the person/group that was Israeli or that they were representing Israel but rather the choice of specific song?

 

[velvet]

I don't know much about eurovision or the participants or what song they incorporated
is the issue then not with the person/group that was Israeli or that they were representing Israel but rather the choice of specific song?

i don’t understand what you’re asking here.

 

[Selfmate]

i don’t understand what you’re asking here.

sorry my bad

you mentioned that the Israel contingent sang a song that contained references to October the 7th

my question was is the issue not with the nationalities of the participants per se but rather the song choice they made?

 

[velvet]

sorry my bad

you mentioned that the Israel contingent sang a song that contained references to October the 7th

my question was is the issue not with the nationalities of the participants per se but rather the song choice they made?

It got rewritten fortunately but a lot of people saw through it.

 

[Selfmate]

It got rewritten fortunately but a lot of people saw through it.

noted but my question was "then is the issue not that they were Israeli per se but rather the contents of their song was provocative"
like if the artist sang a completely neutral song would that have been acceptable?

 

[ani07]

right so it's not just eurovision then?
you'd have issue with athletes from "problematic" countries partaking in any competition?

as for olympics for example, it represents international cooperation.
and the athlets can still particiapate without a flag.

 

[Selfmate]

as for olympics for example, it represents international cooperation.
and the athlets can still particiapate without a flag.

so in your opinion then one must disavow/disown/distance themselves from their countries should they come from a "problematic" country in such events and competitions?

 

[ani07]

so in your opinion then one must disavow/disown/distance themselves from their countries should they come from a "problematic" country in such events and competitions?

its everyone own decission to do so, like why would they do that when they agree to it?

 

[Selfmate]

its everyone own decission to do so, like why would they do that when they agree to it?

sorry I'm not quite understanding the use of pronouns in your sentence lol

the they refers to the participants right?
and the it?

 

[ani07]

sorry I'm not quite understanding the use of pronouns in your sentence lol

the they refers to the participants right?
and the it?

yes, they for the participants and it for the bad thing happening

 

[velvet]

noted but my question was "then is the issue not that they were Israeli per se but rather the contents of their song was provocative"
like if the artist sang a completely neutral song would that have been acceptable?

To ebu it's because it's provocative, to me and a lot of other people it's because they're israeli.

 

[Selfmate]

yes, they for the participants and it for the bad thing happening

so let me guess this right
what you are effectively saying is "just because they are from a certain country who does bad things" unless they choose to disavow themselves of it they are complicit in the bad thing?

 

[Selfmate]

To ebu it's because it's provocative, to me and a lot of other people it's because they're israeli.

so the issue with the fact that they were Israeli and thus the argument would be because someone comes from a country where the government of the country does bad things then all citizens of that country are responsible???

 

[Pirioca]

so the issue with the fact that they were Israeli and thus the argument would be because someone comes from a country where the government of the country does bad things then all citizens of that country are responsible???

And that's the problem with banning artists/athletes from ESC and Olympic Games. Not every citizen accepts Netanyahu's politics, there are war protests in Israel too. Not every Russian accepts Putin's war against Ukraine. But when you openly protest against Putin in Russia, you'll get arrested and often your whole family will be threatened. It's also possible that you lose your job. If your boss is pro-Putin, you will lose your job for sure!

It's a bit too easy to live in a democratic country and claim that an artist or athlete needs to respresent a whole country. Because that's not possible.

@ani07 you live in Germany too. You know about the recent success of the extreme right-wing AfD party. Imagine they would win the next German Bundestag (national parliament) elections. Would you say that Germany needs to be banned from ESC because one artist represents all citizens of 'Nazi Germany'?

 

[Selfmate]

And that's the problem with banning artists/athletes from ESC and Olympic Games. Not every citizen accepts Netanyahu's politics, there are war protests in Israel too. Not every Russian accepts Putin's war against Ukraine. But when you openly protest against Putin in Russia, you'll get arrested and often your whole family will be threatened. It's also possible that you lose your job. If your boss is a fan of Putin, you will lose your job for sure!

It's a bit too easy to live in a democratic country and claim that an artists or athlete needs to respresent a whole country. Because that's not possible.

@ani07 you live in Germany too. You know about the recent success of the extreme right AfD party. Imagine they would win the next German Bundestag elections. Would you say that Germany needs to be banned from ESC because one artist represents all citizens of 'Nazi Germany'?

I'm always of the opinion that we as individuals should be judged based on our own actions and those actions alone and not by the actions of our parents, our family, our forefathers, our race, religion etc etc - I'm pretty sure we all have enough problems individually without adding problems not of our own creation

Now if the individual's actions supported a horrible regime or supported bad people then we judge them on that action and that action alone and not by the colour of their skin or nationality etc etc
For example if the Israeli group in question actively supported genocide then we can judge them for those actions just as I would equally judge ANYBODY who supports genocide - the issue should be no one should support genocide not the fact that they were Israeli or Palestinian or whatever

And as you have said there does exist situations where certain people needed to take a certain position in order to protect their own interests and those of their family - the same thing can be said of my country and kpop idols - certain Chinese Idols had to tow the CCP line with regards to democracy and HK during those protests

 

[Soogi]

interesting choice - does that mean in your pov every "celebrity" of person of fame has to then distance themselves from their native countries when their native countries do something bad
what I mean by "celebrities or person of fame" could include actors/actresses/notable scientists/authors/singers/athletes etc etc?

it's really not that complicated. people don't want to give a genocidal ethnostate a platform, especially in a competition that is meant to promote unity and peace. you focus so much on what people think about the artists when for all we care, it could be a montenegrian who has no connections to zionism competing for israel, the point stands that a nation actively committing crimes against humanity should not be included in such festivities, nor should they be normalised.

i read a short interview with one of the people who protested during israel's general repetition a few hours ago, and he was very clear: "it's not about the artist, it's about taking a clear stance against a nation actively carpet bombing entire generations of families"

 

[catonkatonk]

I'm from the UK and if the UK was excluded from any international competition, organisation or festival due to its behaviour I wouldn't be crying about it.
I certainly wouldn't be more upset about that than the actual horrible things the UK (and England in particular) has done throughout history right through the current day.

But then I also would never choose to "represent" my country in any way. I'm not having myself associated with the Union Jack after the horrors that banner has flown over.


So that's my perspective.
Is it right or wrong that someone should be excluded from competing in an event based on what country they're from? I'd say it depends on whether that person is representing themselves, or representing their nation. But more realistically, I don't care about individual singing competitions. I think maybe a lot of people invest themselves in these symbolic causes because they are proxies for other things, bigger things. Maybe. I don't think there's much of importance on an individual level here, or on a case-by-case basis. The real question is one of BDS. Of the aggregate of individual actions.

 

[Selfmate]

it's really not that complicated. people don't want to give a genocidal ethnostate a platform, especially in a competition that is meant to promote unity and peace. you focus so much on what people think about the artists when for all we care, it could be a montenegrian who has no connections to zionism competing for israel, the point stands that a nation actively committing crimes against humanity should not be included in such festivities, nor should they be normalised.

i read a short interview with one of the people who protested during israel's general repetition a few hours ago, and he was very clear: "it's not about the artist, it's about taking a clear stance against a nation actively carpet bombing entire generations of families"

I can understand having issues with the government of a "problematic country"
I can understand having issues with the military of a "problematic country"
what one is saying is that all citizens within a "problematic country" are responsible for the actions of a "problematic country"

obviously the question of what a "problematic country" is is left to the individual
I don't really have any issues with anybody deciding to boycott or have issues with what they deem to be a "problematic country" - is one's own choice at the end of the day

my question again comes down to why does one have issues with the individual people of a "problematic country"? obviously as velvet mentioned the Israeli contingent apparently wrote lyrics about the war and I again I would say sure judge them based on that and that action alone because it's those actions that may be seen as problematic not the mere fact that belong to some race, colour, group, nationality no?

when we start assigning fault to individuals who belong to a certain class/group does that not end up in a slippery slope?

 

[Selfmate]

I'm from the UK and if the UK was excluded from any international competition, organisation or festival due to its behaviour I wouldn't be crying about it.
I certainly wouldn't be more upset about that than the actual horrible things the UK (and England in particular) has done throughout history right through the current day.

But then I also would never choose to "represent" my country in any way. I'm not having myself associated with the Union Jack after the horrors that banner has flown over.


So that's my perspective.
Is it right or wrong that someone should be excluded from competing in an event based on what country they're from? I'd say it depends on whether that person is representing themselves, or representing their nation. But more realistically, I don't care about individual singing competitions. I think maybe a lot of people invest themselves in these symbolic causes because they are proxies for other things, bigger things. Maybe. I don't think there's much of importance on an individual level here, or on a case-by-case basis. The real question is one of BDS. Of the aggregate of individual actions.

I argued that why is it limited to singing competitions? what of all events - Olympics? chess? noble prizes? movie awards and festivals other competitions?
can (should?) the Olympics be able to ban athletes from competing for certain "problematic countries"? I think they did for Russia right?
if you come from say a "problematic country" - and you are up for a noble prize does that disqualify you?
the list goes on...

Again I have no issues with individuals having issues with problematic countries there are a lot of problematic countries and obviously it's up to the individual as to which country they wish to boycott or protest or whatever - that's completely on the individual

My issue is when the only disqualifying factor for an individual is when they belong to a certain class/group and that individual has not given any indication of being problematic otherwise - obviously if that individual said problematic things then we judge them on that basis and not for the fact that they belong to a certain class/group

 

[catonkatonk]

if you come from say a "problematic country" - and you are up for a noble prize does that disqualify you?
the list goes on...

Very obviously not, on the basis that the prize is for an individual representing, at best, a scientific institution. They are not representing their country.

In the Olympics, you can compete as an Independent, thereby not representing your country of origin.

But this entire line of questioning from you seems either disingenuous or obtuse, tbh. The Israeli competitors are deliberately running propaganda for their country. There is a global media campaign to vote for them funded by the Israeli government (and before the question: No. The UK government does not provide any funding at all in respect to Eurovision, unless it is hosting it).

The very idea that the Israeli competitors would, like an Olympian from a disgraced nation, choose to compete as an independent, not associated with their country, is absolutely absurd. The entire point of their participation is based on the idea that they are representing their country, literally on behalf of their government. Your hypothetical turns this into an abstract that is shorn of the details that actually matter.


But if we are to accept generalities then, yes, it is perfectly acceptable for an individual to lose opportunity because of the actions of their nation, even if they disagree with those actions. For example, the Israeli government, funding this little propaganda exercise, has repeatedly argued that everybody in Gaza bears responsibility for the Oct. attack, and they all must be punished. This is not mere talk, because this desire has been enacted by, at a minimum, a blanket siege in the region. While Israel has decided that children should not be allowed food because they are Palestinian, you want to have a conversation as to whether an Israeli should be deprived of the right to run propaganda for their country in a singing competition. I hope you see the asymmetry in these two things. Which in itself is a side note: If your abstract moral position held, there would never be a moral justification for sanctions or for war, both of which affect all individuals of nations irrespective of their beliefs.