Pussycat Dolls where run just like a kpop group (1 Viewer)

[dark_tranquility]

I guess going solo is not only bad in kpop

But I find this case really interesting, as the way it was portryed in the video at least, everyone seemed to have thought she pretty much is the group, but when the other members who where not considered impactful were gone, everything fell apart..

I see that happening. It sux.

 

[seungfloral]

rather greed and money

Agreed

 

[dark_tranquility]

Agreed

Greed is one of the worst vices.

 

[Moguri]

TL;DR – Western pop groups aren't like Korean pop groups and were never going to work for the most part.

I don't personally know if I'd say they were run like a k-pop group. I can't really think of any western boy or girl group that was ever like their Korean equivalents. I say Korean because, really, not even other such groups in Asia are like k-pop groups. They're their own thing, save for when the usual human negativity rears its ugly head. But that can't be helped no matter where you are in the world.

I'd say the closest western group would be Take That from the UK, at least in their later years, when they all mellowed out and matured.

But for the most part, I feel like western groups were a series of failed experiments in trying to cram people with wildly different backgrounds and skillsets into boxes and ordering them to make it work. Take That learned to make it work because they grew up.

I'm not implying, 'Oh, right, because Asians are so docile and never rock the boat . . .' I'm East Asian myself, and I hate when people bring this up. Because yes, even though all Asian societies are different, very generally speaking we are taught not to rock the boat – but that's still not all of what we are, obviously, you know? I just think there's something about the k-pop idols that make them great at teamwork and still great on an individual level, so everything just clicks.

And obviously, a lot of the times, it still doesn't. But again, that's human nature. I just don't think western individualism gets along well with the concept of idol groups. You certainly don't see them going from first gen to second gen all the way up to fourth like in k-pop.

If Pussycat Dolls were run like a k-pop group, I feel like some actual effort would have been put into making sure everyone could sing and dance. Line distribution could still have been problematic, certainly, but I think it'd have been somewhat better than what we actually got.

Even if the members all ended up hating each other, fandoms and antis would up being toxic, the company wound up being toxic, too, I think there would have been effort, at least initially, to make them work. But western pop groups have always just been, 'Hey, these people are hot. They look good together. They can . . . sorta sing? And dance? Well, I dunno, just sign them up already! This will totally work!'

And I guess it kind of does, but there's just never much foresight or care, and as a result, lots of built-up drama and resentment gets made instead.

Actually, I sat back a moment and had a thought, and if I'm being honest, if there's any western countries that could potentially make pop groups a thing, it's the Nordic countries. They could do it, I'm sure. I dunno, does ABBA count? Never really listened to them.

Well ofc the title of the thread was a bit sensational and they were not run like a kpop group in every aspect. But there are still many aspects that are true, like the members getting payed very little and just being employees of the label that have no say in anything and are made to feel that they can be replaced any time. They probably still got payed better what many kpop artists got or still get, but still a lot less than what you would have expected from such a popular group.

Why do you think the western groups were failed though? I think many of them existed for similar times to what most kpop groups exist and many of them had great success. Also Kpop generations are not something that has any meaning for an individual group and is a made up thing anyways without any real meaning, apart from indiciating that the kpop system is around for quite some time now.

Yeah many asian societies being more collectivist rahter than individualist certainly helps to forming those groups. I'm not sure all idols are great at teamwork, but usually they are well trained, so they just start out more skilled I would think, which makes it easier to showcase the group and indivual skills.

Not sure if you saw the video, but it was explained the pussycat dolls were a dance crew for many years prior to the what they became later on, so most of them are actually very trained in dance. Actually it seems Melody (who was supposed to be the lead singer), gave an interview where she complained "I'm put in a group where everyone else is dancing sine they are 3 years old and I never had a dance lesson in my life". But as she was not used to sing, it made her look very bad ofc and media and fans made fun of her. Just like idols in kpop get singled out by fans..

Also that person who was the manager of the pussycat dolls (Robin Antin, also a former member of the dance crew), always tried to reform the group and was very interested to build up the brand. She even gave an interview where she was asked what she thinks about all members wishes to go solo and she was livid, saying she can't hear that s*** anymore and that they will all fail and just ruin the group.

 

[Moguri]

Okay, I decided to do some research to make sure what I was saying was actually accurate, and found this . . .



Yeah, I take back what I said, this isn't a western group problem, this is just a Pussycat Dolls problem 🙃 Oops.

. . . I needs sleep.

I'm not sure what you mean, what exactly does that proove?

 

[Moguri]

Yeah, k-pop companies are really frustrating for those exact reasons >< It seems like it should be a no-brainer not to behave like that towards your groups, especially as they're what make you money. That's why I respect Dreamcatcher Company so much, since they just have Dreamcatcher and make sure the girls get what they need.

Oh, I know. That was my point, actually, just that there's longevity in k-pop. If it had failed early, we'd never have made it this far. Western pop groups just sort of spring up every now and then, but they never maintained a streak like this, if that makes sense.

That's a good point. I was actually trying so hard not to use the word collectivist, though, because I feel like there's some baggage attached to it. But you're definitely right. And honestly, that's all I meant, really. The western pop groups that did work did so because they were legitimately friends or family. It's not as easy in the west trying to get total strangers to be cohesive in this sort of setting, I feel.

Oh, I did see parts of it, but then I got antsy, hence why I skipped around ^^; I should have written my point better, which is that since they chose to be an all-rounder-ish sort of group, the people behind them should have done more to help with that. And yeah, fandoms can be suuuper toxic, I totally get that.

Oof. I can't imagine what that must have been like to hear as a member of the group, if they did hear it at all.

Should be.. but as we know now due to recent news, even supposed top labels like SM still keep treating their idols really bad and screwing them over with shady contracts and paying them very little. But I think some labels apart from dreamcatcher company also seem to be doing their idols a lot better now. I remember when IVEs dormitory was shown on a TV show, everyone was really impressed by how luxurious it was (given that IVE were a rookie group and not from a big 4 label). Also Twice extending their contract with JYP, also can only mean they did not get treated so badly.

So you mean like a WPop (western pop) version of Kpop? Uh, thats probably really hard to compare as korea is only one country, while the west is many (even though to be fair, almost all groups I know of where either british or american).

Sadly I have very very little knowledge on the personal relations of western groups, so I don't feel confident to judge if they were friends or not. But I think there were some examples in western music were members of groups or bands hated each other and still worked together for long times..

I think the people behind the pussycat dolls had no interest at all to help the members out to get all-rounders, I think they actually wanted to run the group in the exact same way they did: have one person who sings and the rest to make the performance exciting.. also I have no idea how well the other members can sing, as apparently they never did and there is no info on that. There was just one ugly clip in the video where they would all try to get the spotlight and scream and shout over each other during a song

I have no idea if she told the members to their faces or only later on in interviews after the group was already disbanded I can see her point though, I often feel this desire to go solo is understandable from the artist point of view, but they tend to misjudge how popular they are on their own and in most cases really end up failing, but then have ruined the group for it and everyone is having it worse now..

@kimsguardian sorry I did not mean to ping you, the forum is trolling me!

 

[Moguri]

Oh, sorry. I was just saying that I realised after I wrote my initial message that I may have been just a biiit biased against western groups, haha. I think I was sort of leaning too hard into this mindset of, 'Oh, western groups don't work because there's no real thought put into them, either by the company or by the members.' And that didn't really sit right with me, so I went digging, and I found that video, and I realised that NSYNC all held different vocal positions and were meant to harmonise, that that was their thing. And they did it so well, too. I'm sure I could have found other examples, too. But then I realised that it's not 'all western pop groups are like this', it's just that The Pussycat Dolls themselves were not run so well.

oh I see what you mean! Yeah its a good point, I think as western pop has no formula like kpop, it also makes sense that different groups were run very differently. But I would have to watch documentaries on all of them to get any insight on this

 

[kimsguardian]

you're asking me to read that ridiculouy long comment of yours??

i know pussycat dolls and, yeah i like some of their songs but that's it. i don't really care what happened to them since i don't stan them.

thanks for tagging me btw

 

[Moguri]

you're asking me to read that ridiculouy long comment of yours??

i know pussycat dolls and, yeah i like some of their songs but that's it. i don't really care what happened to them since i don't stan them.

thanks for tagging me btw

no its all good, the forum just added a random quote from you from another thread and I only saw it after it was posted

 

[kimsguardian]

no its all good, the forum just added a random quote from you from another thread and I only saw it after it was posted

aah make sense, it's okay to keep tagging me btw

 

[Moguri]

Yeah, I was honestly shocked when I heard about that. But I guess I really shouldn't be at this point. Ooh, I haven't heard about IVE, that sounds awesome! Glad about Twice, too. I think JYP might be learning from Stray Kids on how to treat a group right. But what do I know, really. I just think it's so stupid to disrespect your own groups. Like, who does that actually help in any way whatsoever? I honestly can't fathom it. I just sincerely hope that companies will do better. I think k-pop is slowly moving in that direction, but there's a long way to go.

Oh, I know. I have a bad habit of lumping all western groups together >< Really, I'm just talking about the ones from the US and UK. I'm sorry about that.

Yeah, I was just basing my statement on anecdotal evidence, really. I just felt a little more secure in that since these groups have been around for so long, or at least have been known for so long, that it's easier to find such information on them. And yeah, I think that happens in k-pop, too. I think it's down to contracts, not wanting to start drama and the fact that it's still their livelihoods, and you can't just quit a job like that. Unless you meant after they stopped working together initially, they still got together? Sorry, I may have misread.

That really sucks, but oh well. Maybe they had a good reason for wanting to stick to that formula :\

Oh, okay. But yeah, I understand all of that, too. I also think it might be hard for the general public to see the artists as individuals after they've been in groups for so long. It's a complicated situation, and I'm not sure how it could be done better other than to market them as soloists whilst still keeping them doing group activities, like in k-pop. But I guess the group foundation and dynamics have to be stable in order to build from there. Basically, you have to get your house in order first, that sort of thing.

They went onto a show where you can present your house or something like that and showed their dorm, here is little clip from it:


Some people ofc still hated on it as not every member has their own room or how the rooms are distributed, but I think overall for kpop standards its a really nice place to live. By now this is probably outdated though, after their huge success they are getting a new dorm now, as they told in a recent interview, so maybe they have already moved.

I also never understood why the idols get treated like this, but I guess it worked out for the agencies... greed is always endless and they rather ruin the idols life than to lose out on any addtional earnings.

I think in Kpop you have even more motivation to not cause drama, as they have all that bs with trainee debt and so in place (depending on the company).. and I think there have been enough cases where the companies would pretty much stop an idol from promoting and earning money, but keep adding to their debt.. its all very scary to me.

Well first thing to do it better, als we already concluded, don't treat everyone so badly, so they don't want to leave the group.. apart form that yeah, I think this is one of the things kpop companies do actually well, members can have solo activities without it being a big deal, I think that kinda never worked out in the west? I mean usually if a artist wanted to release somthing solo, he pretty much quit the group first, but I could be wrong

 

[Moguri]

No worries! I would, too, haha. But yeah, you said it. I do like how NSYNC seemed to do it, even though by having people filling different vocal positions, it really limits who gets to sing the main parts. I think it was only two members, Justin Timberlake and JC Chasez, who got to do that. So it's unique! I like that approach. We don't really see that even in k-pop. But yeah, I just wish other members got more to do.

I used to be in youth orchestra, and I always feel bad for people who play bass instruments, or have a bass voice, because they never get the spotlight for anything 😭 Bit of a tangent there, sorry 😂😅

I'm not sure I understand your example, if members are designated to sing the main parts, isn't the same as in kpop where usually the main and lead vocals get to do that?

Oh no problem, I totaly understand what you mean.. I guess there are always supportive roles like that, but without that them everything would sound off.. so they are needed, even if they do not get the spotlight I can only imagine its a good role if you like to be in a band, but not have the spotlight on you? I'm not sure if anyone thinks like that

 

[Moguri]

Yeah, that dorm is brilliant! I can't imagine what the new dorm's like if this is their original one, haha.

True :\ Sometimes I daydream about starting my own k-pop company just to consider what I would do >< Not that I have any proper experience whatsoever, obviously.

What's trainee debt? I think I can guess, but I'm not entirely sure.

I think it might also have to do with how expensive it is to run a group. Maybe western companies don't want to have to promote someone both solo and in a group? Just a thought.

Maybe they'll show it one day, but all they said is that they will have 2 apartements now as it was not possible to find a room with 6 seperate rooms.

haha yeah, but I think the thought of running it is a lot nicer than the reality, I can't even imagine the headache to deal with all those unfair things if you are not one of the top labels

Trainee debt is probably the worst thing about kpop.. they just put all costs for whatever they want on the trainees, for housing them, feeding them, promotions, producing the M/V, whatever you can think of. I always get the impression its unclear to the trainees how much debt they are put in, but its the main reason why so many of them never earn anything, as all money that is earned is used to pay off their debts, but on the same time the company keeps adding debt for new CBs or whatever they want.. As far as I know the big 4 labels do not do this, but ofc I have no real insight, so who knows what is true

possible, I think it really depends on the expecations, but in kpop doing a solo is probably more expensive in many cases, as you sell less albums as with the group

 

[Moguri]

That's true, but at least the other members get parts, too, whether they're vocals or rappers, even if some get more than others. In NSYNC it was only two of them who got their own parts.

I think that's why they do it, actually. A lot of those musicians will say that. And I like being the support, too, honestly. It just feels good, and you get to listen with the audience as the actual spotlight musician does something crazy, haha.

oh I misunderstood then, so the other 3 members got no parts at all?

well I guess than it is okay, its good those roles exist too

 

[Moguri]

Yeah, or at least I'm fairly certain that they didn't

There's something for everyone, basically ^^

oh.. so what are they doing, only sing the chorus with the others?

btw as you have not reacted to it, just wondering if you also the my other post before that one

 

[Moguri]

Yeah, pretty much ^^

Ohh, I don't think so. I'll try to look for it ^^

oh I meant the one here, you just have to scroll up a bit!

 

[Moguri]

First of all, sorry, I totally missed this for some reason. My bad 😭

Oh, okay. That makes sense ^^

Yeah, true! There's so much you'd have to juggle all the time *sigh*

That royally sucks :( I hate hearing about things like this. I mean, I guess it sort of makes sense if you're not a company with a whole lot of money to begin with, but to put *all* of that on the trainees? It's mad. Even worse if the big 4 also do this ><

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that. I'm just happy that the idols I stan at least tend to do well solo, like BM. But I wish everyone would do well, of course.

haha np! I thought so

Yeah I also understand how it makes sense, but its still really cruel the way they have implemented it... also like I said, to my knowledge the big 4 are not doing that (anymore). I guess it makes sense, once the agency is established, their existing groups get enough cash to pay for the next generations.. it would be interesting to have a list of which labels do it and which don't, as probably outside the big 4 it will be very different form label to label. Not having trainee debt should be a big advantage though to get more and the better trainees. At least I would think that, but sometimes I get the impression especially the parents of the young trainees never read or understand any of the contracts they sign.. otherwise its hard to understand how certain things happen or keep happening.

 

[Moguri]

Thank you for your understanding

It's good that they don't then ^^ And yeah, I'd be curious to see a list, too. But I agree about the parents, and I think that that's a big thing in any country and any entertainment industry, which is definitely worrying. I also wonder if it's harder for foreign idols and their parents?

I tried again to look it up, but its just too hard to get any decent info

I found a few interesting articles though:

Fans praise ADOR after NewJeans reveal they got paid in just two months post debut

NewJeans getting paid just two months after their debut has made ADOR earn much-needed brownie points from K-pop fans.

www.sportskeeda.com

So the mere fact that this gets praised, tells you everything you need to know.

Also found this chart:

Income divisions of SM, YG, JYP, FNC, DSP

kpopkfans.blogspot.com

Just keep in mind I have no idea how credible this is and the article is very old (2016), so things might have changed by now. Some of the values are sstill hocking, like how much SM keeps / kept from the album sales. But for the context of our discussion here I think the most important part it the "Note" where it says if the company pays the artists before they break even and according to this, the big 3 at least do, so the artists all get paid right away. I would imagine none of them changed this by now as they all only kept getting more succesfull.

Also a interesting one that came up:

[instiz] TO MAKE ONE GIRL GROUP, YOU NEED 3 BILLION WON

We translate Pann articles about Korean news, music, drama and lifestyle

www.pannchoa.com

Again no idea how credible this is, but at least its a newer article from december last year. Here I find especially noteworthy how much of the total cost is in the album production. I guess this includes M/V shooting, which is probably the most expensive part.

Regarding if its harder for foreign idols, I would think yes.. I always wonder how this young people can find the courage to make the move to korea tbh or how their parents have it in their hearts to allow it, I would find it incredibly scary with all the stories we here about the kpop industry

 

[Moguri]

Oh wow, thank you for looking all of that up! These are all so eye-opening and insightful.

This all makes me think of what I said before, about how Dreamcatcher Company only has Dreamcatcher, minus a couple of solo acts (I think). I genuinely feel like a smaller company should only have the one group and be fully invested in them. Like, don't put them into debt, it was your choice to sink this much money into them in the first place. I really, really like the quote from the HYBE CEO about this in the first link, that it's an investment, and that if a group fails to make it, it's on the company to take that loss. Technically, it's on the artists as well. But at least they're not being saddled with debt along the way. The company supplies the funds, the artists supply the manpower, that's the thing. They're already paying with their bodies. And it's work like any other, so of course they should be compensated for it as well.

Still, it's insane to me that the cost of one girl group is equal to $2.5M USD. Like, that's just bonkers to me. I always knew it was going to be high, but that is still eye-opening.

Shame on SM, by the way. Like you said, who knows if all of that in the second link is still accurate, but given even just what they did to f(x) and all that's come to light about EXO now? I'm honestly not surprised. It's a wonder that SHINee's still going strong.

I'm now understanding as well what I've been hearing about the Loona boycott. That royally sucks. I can't imagine being in a situation like that T^T

About the album production, yes, and I think it makes sense. Like you said, it probably factors in MV production as well, and of course k-pop MVs are always insane.

I think courage is a good word for it, honestly. To go to a foreign country and likely without the best Korean, even if you did grow up speaking it, and to likely be trapped in trainee debt for years . . . Even just the universal woes of moving, such as not having any friends, not knowing where anything is, or what the social customs are, etc. It's a lot to take in. But imagine what it must be like for trainees who aren't even Korean to start? I think about Amber of f(x) who's Taiwanese American, for example, or Jackson Wang. I imagine it must be harrowing.

Sorry, I genuinely was not expecting to write this much >< It's just a lot for me to process, I think.

But if the numbers are somewhat correct and the big costs come only from the album production, those costs repeat every time if you have anotehr comeback. I think in thise case it probably does not matter so much if the company has 1, 2 or 3 groups. While it makes sense to focus on one group, its also a risk, even you put all your effort, love and focus into one comeback, they can always fail. So having more groups could diversify the risk.. but ofc of all comebacks you have an even bigger minus

Also to be fair, HYBE can now easily make statements like that, after they earned enough money from BTS to build a KPOP empire.. but its ofc still good for everyone involved that they are doing it

Loona situation is even a lot worse, as the way their contracts where designed they could pretty much never earn money, even if the comeback was succesfull, they would still increase their debt. Its very diabolical tbh

to my knowledge, most of the foreign trainees speak pretty much no korean when they come. BP Lisa told that she could not speak a single world korean and was only 14 when she joined YG, the company did not allow the other trainees like Jennie to speak to her in english either (to force her to learn quicker), ofc they still talked in english behind the managers back, but its really not easy. I'm positive for all the japanese Twice members it was the same, they could also not speak korean, but they at least had the advantage that JYP was recruiting a lot of japanese trainees (Sana and Momo came with the same flight for example) and I heared of no rule that forbid them from speaking japanese with each other. So yeah there are many different scenarios for foreign idols too, but depending on the company and from which country you are, there is a good chance you are the only person from your country and do not speak any korean

 

[Moguri]

That's true. It's a lot of risk but also possibly a lot of reward, and even playing it safe can still backfire.

I just hope HYBE doesn't go off the rails ><

Yeah, I remember when Loona first came about, people were always talking about how they and their company had '$5 and a dream', and unless I'm being put under the Mandela Effect, I'm pretty sure I heard that BBC was doing right by them, too. So when I started hearing about all the controversies, it came as a huge shock to me.

Yeah, that sounds like a truly rough situation to be in, no matter what the logistics are T^T

yeah.. I think the only takeaway from this is just like a general rule everyone should follow. never trust any kpop companies (or companies in general)