What is the line between mismanagement vs this group will never be successful? (2 Viewers)

[Pirioca]

Define success. Dreamcatcher were never very popular in South Korea but they built a comparatively large and stable fandom internationally. They even brought Metalheads to K-Pop who never listened to 'pure' K-Pop groups like Blackpink and BTS before. Even now, after Dreamcatcher's hiatus, InSomnias are still active and talk about Dreamcatcher (not so much about UAU). In a commercial sense, would you call Dreamcatcher a successful K-Pop group?

Or let's talk about one-hit-wonders. An artist has one popular song but no one cares about the rest of their discography. Imagine you are an artist and write/produce songs since 15 or 20 years, but people will always remember you because of those moment in a commercial or those 3 minutes in a movie. Would you call yourself a successful artist?

 

[RandAlThor]

Define success. Dreamcatcher were never very popular in South Korea but they built a comparatively large and stable fandom internationally. They even brought Metalheads to K-Pop, who never listened to 'pure' K-Pop groups like Blackpink and BTS before. Even now, after Dreamcatcher's hiatus, InSomnias are still active and talk about Dreamcatcher (not so much about UAU). In a commercial sense, would you call Dreamcatcher a successful K-Pop group?

Or let's talk about one-hit-wonders. An artist has one popular song but no one cares about the rest of their discography. Imagine you are an artist and write/produce songs since 15 or 20 years, but people will always remember you because of those moment in a commercial or those 3 minutes in a movie. Would you call yourself a successful artist?

Totally, there are many artist who have had entire careers and their lives paid for from one Hit. now that is more in the West were the numbers are better, but 1 super hit managed correctly can make ya successful for life (especially if ya wrote it and own the rights)

 

[Somnia]

That is the story, but most flat refuse to blame the members ( or the parents). Evil SM must be the problem.
End of the day even with all they did together, the little green monster of envy took root. Caving to the parents showed just how much of passengers they were.

Jessica and Krystal were becoming a brand. A duet Album was finished. multiple tv shows were aired. Jessica was/ is very popular in China (considering much of her money the past 12 years has come from there). SNSD was going to be serious about China and that added to the issues ( lol but 1-2 years later THADD would have killed it all)

I love the members but i agree they made a bad call. Post Jessica SNSD was never the same. That's the downside of pushing the soshi bond narrative so hard to make it work ya gotta Astroturf the old member( and even teh girls never did that they relied on the fan machine twitter insiders ect). Losing a main vocal is gonna mess with the sound. Heck initially it was mostly sunglasses.

Jessica was pretty much the member who drew me into SNSD and Kpop in early 2010. I was at that time playing a video game called Final Fantasy XIII, which had a girl who I always thought looked like Jessica lol.

One of the reasons I loved SNSD a lot was due to that bond, so when they turned against Jessica I instantly lost all interest in them. I moved on to T-ara after that, right around the time T-ara also was getting destroyed with the false bully lies. And now I am picky with groups and only will go towards groups I feel that really care for one another.

 

[Somnia]

do you think if Idle weren't in the picture that CLC could have developed into something more? or was there no hope for CLC regardless?
like I certainly wasn't around during 4minute's (I'm just goinna call them 4M to save time typing lol) time but what made 4M work compared to say CLC since obviously what made Gidle work was primarily because of Soyeon. And thus what caused CLC to fail is what is happening to Lightsum now that after a few cbs and even removal of members - nothing seemed to have worked so into the dungeons they go???

To be honest as much as I wish they could, but I do not think CLC could have taken off. I also believe that Idle probably saved Cube from their downfall, as Twice saved JYPe from losses. CLC just seemed to me like an experiment Cube was doing. I think at that time they saw other groups and tried to copy the same trend they did. 4M was popular because of their concept being girl crush, and back then Kpop was a very different place. You had groups who were known for their genres so they had their loyal fanbase who adored that genre.

would you say the copy paste mentality is other companies seeing what works and trying to emulate that? for older kpop groups and music they weren't so targeted towards the west and thus the primary market was SK and to a smaller extent Asian countries such as China, Japan and SEA however as kpop trends and groups and even SK populations shifted the market is more international compared to previously - obviously I'm don't have the numbers but even domestic charts such as melon - user counts are all down not just because of the rise of other platforms but down as a whole and even album sales I would argue are down from a percentage of sales POV although not an absolute one (in the sense that more sales as a % are coming from overseas compared to previous generations???)

and therefore groups are targeting more of the international kpop pie and thus have similar style or "look alike"???

I am not sure what caused it. But I do notice when groups have a hit companies soon try and experiment with the same sound or genre. BP for instance had an EDM/ Euro techno song called "Jump" last year which won on music shows a lot. Now this year Hybe is using that exact same genre for ILLIT with "It's Me" to Le Sserafim "Celebration" and altho not really Kpop, but Katseye "Pinky up".

I also think the sales in general are more often going downhill for some groups. They would still sell well regardless, but it's a clear change from debut, or earlier work. Even digitally you can see it on apps like Spotify. Going from over 100mill to suddenly barely 50mill.


I do know for a fact Kpop now desperately tries to go for a Western market. In my honest opinion it's useless. Nobody in America is waiting for a bunch of girls or boy groups. I remember when SNSD made the front page of Youtube (this was long ago maybe 2010-2011), the most said comment was "what are these bunch of Asian girls doing on here" or "They all look the same" or the typical plastic surgery talk. So I know for a fact the only people interested in the West will be the very same ones already into Kpop. The percentage of new fans is so small that I think it's stupid. Matter of fact, I am convinced in some cases that they attract the wrong kind of people, seeing how many are minors. So that should give you an idea what I am talking about.

 

[Selfmate]

Define success. Dreamcatcher were never very popular in South Korea but they built a comparatively large and stable fandom internationally. They even brought Metalheads to K-Pop who never listened to 'pure' K-Pop groups like Blackpink and BTS before. Even now, after Dreamcatcher's hiatus, InSomnias are still active and talk about Dreamcatcher (not so much about UAU). In a commercial sense, would you call Dreamcatcher a successful K-Pop group?

Or let's talk about one-hit-wonders. An artist has one popular song but no one cares about the rest of their discography. Imagine you are an artist and write/produce songs since 15 or 20 years, but people will always remember you because of those moment in a commercial or those 3 minutes in a movie. Would you call yourself a successful artist?

success is relative - like I said to rand
DC selling 100K seems good to them since they averaged what 100-150K per album sale or something?
but if BP sold 100K they would be catastrophic

depends on the artist and whether they can I guess make a living (financially) from that one hit wonder

 

[Selfmate]

To be honest as much as I wish they could, but I do not think CLC could have taken off. I also believe that Idle probably saved Cube from their downfall, as Twice saved JYPe from losses. CLC just seemed to me like an experiment Cube was doing. I think at that time they saw other groups and tried to copy the same trend they did. 4M was popular because of their concept being girl crush, and back then Kpop was a very different place. You had groups who were known for their genres so they had their loyal fanbase who adored that genre.

interesting

I am not sure what caused it. But I do notice when groups have a hit companies soon try and experiment with the same sound or genre. BP for instance had an EDM/ Euro techno song called "Jump" last year which won on music shows a lot. Now this year Hybe is using that exact same genre for ILLIT with "It's Me" to Le Sserafim "Celebration" and altho not really Kpop, but Katseye "Pinky up".

I also think the sales in general are more often going downhill for some groups. They would still sell well regardless, but it's a clear change from debut, or earlier work. Even digitally you can see it on apps like Spotify. Going from over 100mill to suddenly barely 50mill.


I do know for a fact Kpop now desperately tries to go for a Western market. In my honest opinion it's useless. Nobody in America is waiting for a bunch of girls or boy groups. I remember when SNSD made the front page of Youtube (this was long ago maybe 2010-2011), the most said comment was "what are these bunch of Asian girls doing on here" or "They all look the same" or the typical plastic surgery talk. So I know for a fact the only people interested in the West will be the very same ones already into Kpop. The percentage of new fans is so small that I think it's stupid. Matter of fact, I am convinced in some cases that they attract the wrong kind of people, seeing how many are minors. So that should give you an idea what I am talking about.

I think the downward trend in album sales as compared to covid levels of sales but certainly GG album sales have been up generally speaking (especially for the top groups) like in SNSD generation - SNSD's highest individual album sale is like what 450K or something whereas modern GG are hitting 1m regularly

I would disagree that going for Western markets is unless- since there is/are untapped potential there - I mean the SK market is a declining market both in terms of the decrease in population and the overall decrease in popularity of kpop and coupled with the fact that you have to compete with every one else within kpop and in general korean music. Now I wouldn't say to any kpop group put all one's eggs in the Western basket since that would be a stupid thing do to at least some western expansion makes sense (to me)

 

[Chohee_nyang]

does that mean if the debut song is unsuccessful one should disband said group? after one song?

Yesss I mean, cuz first impression is the last impression! If the debut itself goes viral, the other comebacks will too. People always remember the first song which made the group go famous!

 

[Selfmate]

Yesss I mean, cuz first impression is the last impression! If the debut itself goes viral, the other comebacks will too. People always remember the first song which made the group go famous!

but the first song is not always the song that makes people remember...foir example Twice's Like-Ohh-AAhh wasn't so well received initially - that would be Cheer Up and TT no?

Dreamgirls from IOI was also not so well received initially

Brave Girls and Exid and BTS and Big Bang all have later songs that overshadowed their debut songs - I could give you plenty more examples but those seem sufficient

 

[uran]

You all have such good insights

 

[uran]

Wrong thread

 

[RandAlThor]

but the first song is not always the song that makes people remember...foir example Twice's Like-Ohh-AAhh wasn't so well received initially - that would be Cheer Up and TT no?

Dreamgirls from IOI was also not so well received initially

Brave Girls and Exid and BTS and Big Bang all have later songs that overshadowed their debut songs - I could give you plenty more examples but those seem sufficient

to that point. Glass bead did ok but it was MGT that set the stage for Rough which blew up with gfreind.


I think you gotta have a plan for 2-4 cb ie 3-5 titles if you want to drop a group. Be a tiny bit flexable but have a plan.
Realize few will pull off the BP/IVE level debuts, even less can toy around like Red Velvet and essentially build 2 separate fanbases.

 

[Selfmate]

Wrong thread

we don't have good insights?
damn it do better rest of the people in this thread!!! lol

 

[Selfmate]

to that point. Glass bead did ok but it was MGT that set the stage for Rough which blew up with gfreind.


I think you gotta have a plan for 2-4 cb ie 3-5 titles if you want to drop a group. Be a tiny bit flexable but have a plan.
Realize few will pull off the BP/IVE level debuts, even less can toy around like Red Velvet and essentially build 2 separate fanbases.

debut RV and then Yeri RV?

 

[uran]

we don't have good insights?
damn it do better rest of the people in this thread!!! lol

there there selfie, the insight in this thread is good also

 

[Chohee_nyang]

but the first song is not always the song that makes people remember...foir example Twice's Like-Ohh-AAhh wasn't so well received initially - that would be Cheer Up and TT no?

Dreamgirls from IOI was also not so well received initially

Brave Girls and Exid and BTS and Big Bang all have later songs that overshadowed their debut songs - I could give you plenty more examples but those seem sufficient

Bcuz they're from a well known company, I'm taking abt the nugu groups only a few of them like Fifty fifty go viral after debut...

 

[RandAlThor]

debut RV and then Yeri RV?

Red

Velvet

just look at mv plays. Red wins all the awards in Korea but velvet gets int plays.

Even now they are fighting over this next comeback being Red.

 

[Selfmate]

Bcuz they're from a well known company, I'm taking abt the nugu groups only a few of them like Fifty fifty go viral after debut...

but BTS and BB were not know at the time of their debuts
they were essentially nugu groups from nugu companies

 

[Selfmate]

Red

Velvet

just look at mv plays. Red wins all the awards in Korea but velvet gets int plays.

Even now they are fighting over this next comeback being Red.

I'm looking forward to see if it's Lemon related lol

 

[RandAlThor]

I'm looking forward to see if it's Lemon related lol

Joy said no so we will see.

 

[Selfmate]

Joy said no so we will see.

in joy we trust