Variety What the Queendom lineup was originally supposed to be (1 Viewer)

[AnotherKpopTrash]

Due to my own bias, I would've loved to see this original lineup, especially DIA. These are great groups that could really use the exposure.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

tbh none of the groups were even that nugu

mamamoo,bom and g-idle are obv doing great
lovelyz and omg weren't insanely popular but they were never really on the verge of disbanding either
aoa had been losing lots of popularity but at least they had a taste of fame before and were the trendy gg at one point

they obv went mainly for mid-tier groups with mmm,bom and g-idle being the view boosters

I agree. Even if it wasn't the intention, the result was they dropped all the lower popularity groups.

 

[Abeamus]

I think their point was that AOA was not doing poorly, are not nugu, and have high standards for success. It was a compliment.

Saying they lost lots of popularity is not any compliment I know.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

Saying they lost lots of popularity is not any compliment I know.

I suppose that part wasn't, but the overall tone of the statement was pretty positive imo.
And to be honest, even though they are still doing quite well and bingle bangle was great, they have had higher success in the past. I think Queendom has been great for them though, making them known to newer gen fans.

 

[Abeamus]

I suppose that part wasn't, but the overall tone of the statement was pretty positive imo.
And to be honest, even though they are still doing quite well and bingle bangle was great, they have had higher success in the past. I think Queendom has been great for them though, making them known to newer gen fans.

That's really poor logic, at the end of the day every group will peak, Gfriend will never top Me Gustas Tu, Blackpink will never top Ddu-du Ddu-du, Twice will never top Cheer Up, that alone isn't a good basis for saying one lost popularity since groups can and have continued growing after they peaked digitally.

A group does not have to be peaking all the time to be successful, AOA are still a successful group especially for a girl group who was going on 6 years when they released Bingle Bangle since girl groups don't put out hits for that long usually or are even able to generate the buzz AOA had from appearing on Queendom.

As for the statement being positive, I disagree since it can be summed up to "AOA were popular at one point but they're nugus now" using peaks to judge success is a terrible idea as every single comeback a group doesn't peak they're flopping by that logic.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

That's really poor logic, at the end of the day every group will peak, Gfriend will never top Me Gustas Tu, Blackpink will never top Ddu-du Ddu-du, Twice will never top Cheer Up, that alone isn't a good basis for saying one lost popularity since groups can and have continued growing after they peaked digitally.

A group does not have to be peaking all the time to be successful, AOA are still a successful group especially for a girl group who was going on 6 years when they released Bingle Bangle since girl groups don't put out hits for that long usually or are even able to generate the buzz AOA had from appearing on Queendom.

As for the statement being positive, I disagree since it can be summed up to "AOA were popular at one point but they're nugus now" using peaks to judge success is a terrible idea as every single comeback a group doesn't peak they're flopping by that logic.

I really think you're sensationalizing what we're saying. No one said AOA was not successful, I think we're all AOA fans here and it's not I've compared them to other groups.

As for the statement, if you judge it in the context of the original comment, each line about every group was describing why that group is not a lower tier group. Basically, describing why the group is not nugu. "AOA were more popular at one point but they're still a mid tier group".

I'm sorry, but no one is trying to attack AOA. I understand that you disagree that AOA is losing popularity, which is totally valid, but it was never my intention to get into that. All I said was they had "higher success in the past" and the rest positive statements. And all of the sudden you assume I'm only "using peaks to judge success (which) is a terrible idea as every single comeback a group doesn't peak they're flopping by that logic.".
Aren't you making a mountain out of a molehill here?

I love AOA, and it hurts me that they have lower album sales, less media attention, have had hiatuses, and have had members leave. I never wanted to talk about those things, but since i'm judging groups by their peaks apparently I guess I have to. There isn't one way to measure popularity or success, we all have our own ways of doing it. IMO, they were once more popular for said reasons, I don't think anyone's using poor logic here.
And popularity and success are superficial anyways, the important thing is the girls are still the same, and showed the world what they're made of during the show.

 

[Abeamus]

I really think you're sensationalizing what we're saying. No one said AOA was not successful, I think we're all AOA fans here and it's not I've compared them to other groups.

As for the statement, if you judge it in the context of the original comment, each line about every group was describing why that group is not a lower tier group. Basically, describing why the group is not nugu. "AOA were more popular at one point but they're still a mid tier group".

I'm sorry, but no one is trying to attack AOA. I understand that you disagree that AOA is losing popularity, which is totally valid, but it was never my intention to get into that. All I said was they had "higher success in the past" and the rest positive statements. And all of the sudden you assume I'm only "using peaks to judge success (which) is a terrible idea as every single comeback a group doesn't peak they're flopping by that logic.".
Aren't you making a mountain out of a molehill here?

I love AOA, and it hurts me that they have lower album sales, less media attention, have had hiatuses, and have had members leave. I never wanted to talk about those things, but since i'm judging groups by their peaks apparently I guess I have to. There isn't one way to measure popularity or success, we all have our own ways of doing it. IMO, they were once more popular for said reasons, I don't think anyone's using poor logic here.
And popularity and success are superficial anyways, the important thing is the girls are still the same, and showed the world what they're made of during the show.

Going from praising the others for what they are doing now to talking about AOA in the past doesn't scream still doing well to me it screams past it which just isn't true and I responded to it as i'd do the same for any other person who was talking about a groups success in way that isn't true, people are free to give their opinion and i'm free to disagree with it, the same way you are free to disagree with me.

Well when you say Bingle Bangle didn't do as well as their other songs in the past there really isn't much else you could be doing since Bingle Bangle would've done around as well as Short Hair and Like A Cat which only leaves Miniskirt and Heart Attack above it for digitals.

All of that is pretty normal though? AOAs and Apink both had all of that happen minus members leaving for Apink but the others are just a sign of a group getting older, they'll stop having as many comebacks usually going down to 1 a year which results in less coverage because they are less active and focusing on solo adventures when they aren't working on the group and their album sales can lower.

Popularity maybe not but success you can, combining digitals and physicals gives a general idea of how successful a group is and if I thought there was a better way I would use it myself but so far that is the best way I have come across, if you have a better suggestion though feel free to let me know until then I will stick to this.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

Going from praising the others for what they are doing now to talking about AOA in the past doesn't scream still doing well to me it screams past it which just isn't true and I responded to it as i'd do the same for any other person who was talking about a groups success in way that isn't true, people are free to give their opinion and i'm free to disagree with it, the same way you are free to disagree with me.

Well when you say Bingle Bangle didn't do as well as their other songs in the past there really isn't much else you could be doing since Bingle Bangle would've done around as well as Short Hair and Like A Cat which only leaves Miniskirt and Heart Attack above it for digitals.

All of that is pretty normal though? AOAs and Apink both had all of that happen minus members leaving for Apink but the others are just a sign of a group getting older, they'll stop having as many comebacks usually going down to 1 a year which results in less coverage because they are less active and focusing on solo adventures when they aren't working on the group and their album sales can lower.

Popularity maybe not but success you can, combining digitals and physicals gives a general idea of how successful a group is and if I thought there was a better way I would use it myself but so far that is the best way I have come across, if you have a better suggestion though feel free to let me know until then I will stick to this.

I really don't understand the way you are interpreting my words. I think these topics are very subjective so if you've noticed, I've never said anything you said is wrong. I feel like the original statements were very brief and innocent. I don't understand this reaction. I completely agree, we're free to disagree, but you're insinuating all of these things I'm saying that I never did and saying it "just isn't true". Things like that make me think you don't really respect my opinion and are just trying to start an argument.

You mentioned AOA and Apink getting older and is all pretty normal. Yes it's normal, but again, no one said AOA is doing worse than normal or is less successful than normal. Becoming older and less active is normal. But this means losing popularity over time is also normal, there's no shame in it.

And why would I have a better suggestion for measuring success? My whole point was that we all have our own ways to evaluate success. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm suppose if you asked what my way was, it would include concert tours, show wins, awards, attendance, etc.
The point I was trying to get across was that judging success and popularity isn't very important anyway, so I'm not sure why we're so focused on it rn. We've said so many positive things about them, why not focus on those.

 

[Abeamus]

I really don't understand the way you are interpreting my words. I think these topics are very subjective so if you've noticed, I've never said anything you said is wrong. I feel like the original statements were very brief and innocent. I don't understand this reaction. I completely agree, we're free to disagree, but you're insinuating all of these things I'm saying that I never did and saying it "just isn't true". Things like that make me think you don't really respect my opinion and are just trying to start an argument.

You mentioned AOA and Apink getting older and is all pretty normal. Yes it's normal, but again, no one said AOA is doing worse than normal or is less successful than normal. Becoming older and less active is normal. But this means losing popularity over time is also normal, there's no shame in it.

And why would I have a better suggestion for measuring success? My whole point was that we all have our own ways to evaluate success. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm suppose if you asked what my way was, it would include concert tours, show wins, awards, attendance, etc.
The point I was trying to get across was that judging success and popularity isn't very important anyway, so I'm not sure why we're so focused on it rn. We've said so many positive things about them, why not focus on those.

If you feel wrongly portrayed then how about you tell me how you did mean to be portrayed then? Misunderstandings happen but you telling me i'm getting the wrong idea and not explaining isn't going to give me the right idea. As for being wrongly portrayed, you took that "just isn't true" from a part in response to the original comment and not in response to you so you have no reason to get offended over that nor portray it like I said it to you.

If it's normal then there's no point in pointing it out because it happens but this part "no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now? Same way saying they lost lots of popularity would indicate they are doing worse now which there is no hard evidence to show that as for a sexy concept girl group it's mainly about digitals which AOA as far as their last comeback goes is doing fine.

How can evaluating success be subjective though if there is a top 5 girl groups with Twice, Blackpink, Red Velvet, Gfriend and Mamamoo? If there is no way to evaluate success objectively then all you could have is your own personal rankings but having a top 5 girl groups and top 3 boy groups goes against that since a lot of people doing it that way end up at the same answer or at least very similar answers.

Well if I had no problem with what was said we wouldn't be having this conversation because there would be nothing to talk about, we'd just agree and that'd be it.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

If you feel wrongly portrayed then how about you tell me how you did mean to be portrayed then? Misunderstandings happen but you telling me i'm getting the wrong idea and not explaining isn't going to give me the right idea. As for being wrongly portrayed, you took that "just isn't true" from a part in response to the original comment and not in response to you so you have no reason to get offended over that nor portray it like I said it to you.

If it's normal then there's no point in pointing it out because it happens but this part "no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now? Same way saying they lost lots of popularity would indicate they are doing worse now which there is no hard evidence to show that as for a sexy concept girl group it's mainly about digitals which AOA as far as their last comeback goes is doing fine.

How can evaluating success be subjective though if there is a top 5 girl groups with Twice, Blackpink, Red Velvet, Gfriend and Mamamoo? If there is no way to evaluate success objectively then all you could have is your own personal rankings but having a top 5 girl groups and top 3 boy groups goes against that since a lot of people doing it that way end up at the same answer or at least very similar answers.

Well if I had no problem with what was said we wouldn't be having this conversation because there would be nothing to talk about, we'd just agree and that'd be it.

Although I never said wrongly portrayed, I meant it in the same way as I did before. Making a mountain out of a molehill. If you want an example, your quote "Going from praising the others for what they are doing now to talking about AOA in the past doesn't scream still doing well to me it screams past it"
Those were legitimately well meaning statements from me. I'm praising them for how well they performed, and reminising about their past 'peak' as you say. But you think it "screams" something extremely negative.

Ok so here's the deal. From the very start, all I said was "AOA had higher success in the past". This is the statement you have a problem with right.
This statement can interpreted in a lot of ways, but it wasn't meant to be interpreted extremely negatively. I never meant it in that way, and from the very beginning, I wanted to make it as a very benign statement. This statement doesn't mean AOA failing now compared to before or doing badly at all, just that they had better times before.

So really the crux of our disagreement is whether "AOA had higher success in the past" is so negative or not, and all our discussion about whether or not they lost popularity is secondary. I don't have a dog in the fight of whether AOA is losing popularity or not. I'm not out to prove that they've lost popularity since I like them.

If you really want my opinion on subjectivity and get to rant, then I will.
Yes, success is subjective. Just because a lot of people agree or even have a consensus doesn't mean it's objective. Kpop fans are so obsessed with competition these days. Things like top 5 groups are just artificial constructs. They don't mean anything. The music industry was never meant to be like this. Music is an art not a science and art is subjective. There are so many things that can be considered success and not success. Some are deep or superficial. Quality of songs, cultural impact, awards, followers, fan attendance, money earned, digitals, physicals, etc. There is certainly no objective way to measure this.

To put Twice as an example, if you said Twice 'had more success in the past' because Cheer up was a national hit and had untold national impact. I would say yes, by those measures, it's true. I wouldn't interpret it as you're saying Twice is doing badly now and all the cbs are flops. Success is interpreted differently by different people, we can disagree but I don't think there is a perfectly right way to do it.

""no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now?"
I stand by this. They are doing worse now. And that's normal for a long running group. And again, it's was never meant to taken so negatively.

So yes, I do believe AOA had higher success in the past and it's ok for us to disagree on that. And lastly, tbh, I never thought we had a lot to talk about. From the beginning, I just hoped we'd agree that AOA is great and let it be. Maybe discuss some performances or something.

 

[QueenGirlCrush]

I think the lineup that we got was the best. Having a variety of women from multiple generations, backgrounds and levels of popularity was amazing. The other thing I would recommend is to not focus so heavily on the competition in the promotions, mainly because we all know the most popular group is going to win. I think this was left over from the original line up concept.

PS: Do ya'll think "Kingdom" is going to work? I mean boy groups are very popular but could it cause branding issues going back and forth between Queendom and Kingdom, or if they call it another name if they go coed? Also Idk any male soloist who are idolish in Kpop. Most of them are still attached to their groups or like BigBang who are way to big or idk if they would have the time.

 

[QueenGirlCrush]

I agree. Even if it wasn't the intention, the result was they dropped all the lower popularity groups.

I think after Kingdom they should do a second women-centric season and have lower popularity groups. By that time (hopefully) the show would still be succesful even without big names. Even I thought the "competition" was bs, I mean of course Mamamoo was going to win and one of the younger groups would come in second.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

I think after Kingdom they should do a second women-centric season and have lower popularity groups. By that time (hopefully) the show would still be succesful even without big names. Even I thought the "competition" was bs, I mean of course Mamamoo was going to win and one of the younger groups would come in second.

I really hope this happens. It's hard to have hope with mnet though.

 

[Abeamus]

Although I never said wrongly portrayed, I meant it in the same way as I did before. Making a mountain out of a molehill. If you want an example, your quote "Going from praising the others for what they are doing now to talking about AOA in the past doesn't scream still doing well to me it screams past it"
Those were legitimately well meaning statements from me. I'm praising them for how well they performed, and reminising about their past 'peak' as you say. But you think it "screams" something extremely negative.

Ok so here's the deal. From the very start, all I said was "AOA had higher success in the past". This is the statement you have a problem with right.
This statement can interpreted in a lot of ways, but it wasn't meant to be interpreted extremely negatively. I never meant it in that way, and from the very beginning, I wanted to make it as a very benign statement. This statement doesn't mean AOA failing now compared to before or doing badly at all, just that they had better times before.

So really the crux of our disagreement is whether "AOA had higher success in the past" is so negative or not, and all our discussion about whether or not they lost popularity is secondary. I don't have a dog in the fight of whether AOA is losing popularity or not. I'm not out to prove that they've lost popularity since I like them.

If you really want my opinion on subjectivity and get to rant, then I will.
Yes, success is subjective. Just because a lot of people agree or even have a consensus doesn't mean it's objective. Kpop fans are so obsessed with competition these days. Things like top 5 groups are just artificial constructs. They don't mean anything. The music industry was never meant to be like this. Music is an art not a science and art is subjective. There are so many things that can be considered success and not success. Some are deep or superficial. Quality of songs, cultural impact, awards, followers, fan attendance, money earned, digitals, physicals, etc. There is certainly no objective way to measure this.

To put Twice as an example, if you said Twice 'had more success in the past' because Cheer up was a national hit and had untold national impact. I would say yes, by those measures, it's true. I wouldn't interpret it as you're saying Twice is doing badly now and all the cbs are flops. Success is interpreted differently by different people, we can disagree but I don't think there is a perfectly right way to do it.

""no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now?"
I stand by this. They are doing worse now. And that's normal for a long running group. And again, it's was never meant to taken so negatively.

So yes, I do believe AOA had higher success in the past and it's ok for us to disagree on that. And lastly, tbh, I never thought we had a lot to talk about. From the beginning, I just hoped we'd agree that AOA is great and let it be. Maybe discuss some performances or something.

I'll be honest it makes it hard to take you seriously when in the previous post you said no one said AOA is doing worse and now you are standing by saying AOA is doing worse therefore going against your own point.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

I'll be honest it makes it hard to take you seriously when in the previous post you said no one said AOA is doing worse and now you are standing by saying AOA is doing worse therefore going against your own point.

Oh come on. Now it's obvious you are just wanting to argue and care about nothing else.

""no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now?"
I stand by this. They are doing worse now. And that's normal for a long running group.

Please read this line again. I said worse now which is normal for a long running group. So not worse than normal. Not that that's important at all or that anyone cares.

Damn, I feel really sorry I tried to bridge the gap with you so many times. I really did not expect this brick wall. I thought you were someone different I suppose. We're done here.

 

[Abeamus]

Oh come on. Now it's obvious you are just wanting to argue and care about nothing else.

""no one said AOA is doing worse than normal" did you not say AOA had higher success in the past therefore it would mean they are doing worse now?"
I stand by this. They are doing worse now. And that's normal for a long running group.

Please read this line again. I said worse now which is normal for a long running group. So not worse than normal. Not that that's important at all or that anyone cares.

Damn, I feel really sorry I tried to bridge the gap with you so many times. I really did not expect this brick wall. I thought you were someone different I suppose. We're done here.

Let me put this into perspective here, I made a comment to someone else and you responded to what I put, I have not insulted you, I have not attacked you, I have went against your arguments however you have continuously said I am looking for an argument, accused me of not respecting your opinion and have made this personal yourself.

I am not interested in getting into a personal argument with you but I would advise you to think about how you are acting yourself in future and while you may be a great person other than this instance, this instance alone does not fill me with interest in talking to you anymore, have a good day.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

Let me put this into perspective here, I made a comment to someone else and you responded to what I put, I have not insulted you, I have not attacked you, I have went against your arguments however you have continuously said I am looking for an argument, accused me of not respecting your opinion and have made this personal yourself.

I am not interested in getting into a personal argument with you but I would advise you to think about how you are acting yourself in future and while you may be a great person other than this instance, this instance alone does not fill me with interest in talking to you anymore, have a good day.

I'd suggest the same. Look at the original statement, I wasn't making any arguments. In any case, I was repeatedly trying to find common ground between us since this is a relatively small community and perhaps turn the conversation into something more positive. From the beginning, I was basically saying I didn't mean it that way in the original statements. And we clearly didn't see eye to eye. I never referenced anything personal other than what was said in the thread. If you would advise me to think about how you are acting yourself in future, I would advise the same in that you could recognize when someone is trying to make good with you, which is what I was trying to do in all except the last post.

I agree with the last sentiment, I don't think this exchange represents who you are, so we should probably put this behind us.

 

[Abeamus]

I'd suggest the same. Look at the original statement, I wasn't making any arguments. In any case, I was repeatedly trying to find common ground between us since this is a relatively small community and perhaps turn the conversation into something more positive. From the beginning, I was basically saying I didn't mean it that way in the original statements. And we clearly didn't see eye to eye. I never referenced anything personal other than what was said in the thread. If you would advise me to think about how you are acting yourself in future, I would advise the same in that you could recognize when someone is trying to make good with you, which is what I was trying to do in all except the last post.

I agree with the last sentiment, I don't think this exchange represents who you are, so we should probably put this behind us.

I know you aren't a malicious person but this is just 1 subject we don't see eye to eye on because how I judge success AOA are doing fine, now maybe they have their comeback and it flops then I'd concede.

I'm sorry if you felt I was being unreasonable, I was trying to see your points but they don't resonate with me as I feel like success isn't completely subjective and you can get a fairly objective way to judge it however I know that is not how you feel and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think we need to common ground to put this behind us, the mature thing to do would've been to realise neither are giving in on this subject maybe because we're both stubborn and to just draw the line and move on but that's not exactly what happened.

I hope this helps clear things up.

 

[AnotherKpopTrash]

I know you aren't a malicious person but this is just 1 subject we don't see eye to eye on because how I judge success AOA are doing fine, now maybe they have their comeback and it flops then I'd concede.

I'm sorry if you felt I was being unreasonable, I was trying to see your points but they don't resonate with me as I feel like success isn't completely subjective and you can get a fairly objective way to judge it however I know that is not how you feel and there's nothing wrong with that.

I don't think we need to common ground to put this behind us, the mature thing to do would've been to realise neither are giving in on this subject maybe because we're both stubborn and to just draw the line and move on but that's not exactly what happened.

I hope this helps clear things up.

Yes, we are both stubborn that's for sure.

It's totally ok that my points didn't resonate with you, we can disagree on that no problem. I was only trying to make it clear that I wasn't intending to say anything negative about AOA. I just didn't want you to think I was saying anything bad about them.

I think we understand each other to move on now I agree.

 

[Abeamus]

Yes, we are both stubborn that's for sure.

It's totally ok that my points didn't resonate with you, we can disagree on that no problem. I was only trying to make it clear that I wasn't intending to say anything negative about AOA. I just didn't want you to think I was saying anything bad about them.

I think we understand each other to move on now I agree.

We should probably work on that huh It took a while but we finally got to an understanding