When you hear that someone got multiple life sentences…. (1 Viewer)

[litc]

In terms of crime, a criminal is considered a better person than a spy no matter what the criminal has done. Up until the last 150 years there was only one penalty for Espionage and treason. It was death. With espionage and treason your not punishing them for just the crime committed but also for the damage done to the entire country. This guy spying could have caused US spy's to get caught, punished, killed. He could of caused family and friends of spy's to be harmed. Unfortunately you never really know how much damage a spy does, even if he tells you everything he told to your enemy you never know what your enemy was able to do with the data they were given.

He sold the US strategies for nuclear war aka Strategic Defense Initiative the main thing preventing a full blown nuclear war from starting

spies cause lots of harm based on the information they give yeah it’s not some minor crime

I’m agreeing with you big time punishment for treason is fair since its not minor

 

[litc]

Should of been death penalty

Espionage is essentialy an act of war. Someone trying to give information to the enemy to be used against a country as an act of war.

15 life sentences makes me think that guy know's some crazy shit he never got to tell OR we don't know what he's told and what he hasn't told so until we find out we have to keep him alive.

Personally, except for extremely odd circumstances, treason and espionage should get the death penalty. Treason and espionage should be viewed as acts of war and punished as such.

I know, I never said life sentence is unfair I didn’t realize he had 15 counts and thought it was one count they replaced death penalty with 15 life imprisonments

yes treason is punished like that for every country this is def not one of the examples of an unfair punishment or US justice or legal system being faulty

there’s cases 100% not this

 

[StirFriedPanda]

Aside from the fact that times change and that the past isn’t exactly an indication of how a perfect society is, I don’t disagree that espionage is harmful to the ones being spied on. I just think that it’s odd to see a (in my mind) very high punishment like this when some crimes in the past have gotten close to nothing for pretty terrible things. More so a “wow they sometimes do give high sentences” more than anything.

I'm kinda shocked at the 15 life sentences too. Thats not even throwing the book at him, it seems kind of pointless TBH.

 

[StirFriedPanda]

He was guilty of 15 counts of espionage or conspiracy to commit espionage

each one is worth life sentence, so just like with serial killers having multiple for multiple victims, bc again treason is punishable by death like I said, it makes sense, adds up just like that

I think you hit the nail on the head right there.

 

[litc]

I’ve seen some of the sentences given to criminals and if those are the standards then in my mind proposing that penalty would be absurd. They may have differences and be under different systems but even if you give leeway to account for that it’s quite a big difference. I don’t care particularly one way or another, it’s just the differences are odd to me.

In terms of crime, a criminal is considered a better person than a spy no matter what the criminal has done. Up until the last 150 years there was only one penalty for Espionage and treason. It was death. With espionage and treason your not punishing them for just the crime committed but also for the damage done to the entire country. This guy spying could have caused US spy's to get caught, punished, killed. He could of caused family and friends of spy's to be harmed. Unfortunately you never really know how much damage a spy does, even if he tells you everything he told to your enemy you never know what your enemy was able to do with the data they were given.

Aside from the fact that times change and that the past isn’t exactly an indication of how a perfect society is, I don’t disagree that espionage is harmful to the ones being spied on. I just think that it’s odd to see a (in my mind) very high punishment like this when some crimes in the past have gotten close to nothing for pretty terrible things. More so a “wow they sometimes do give high sentences” more than anything.

This law is not unfair at all in terms of punishment but if you mean some white people getting away with racially motivated hate crime murder in the past (I’m not talking police officers btw I’m talking normal ppl, and don’t give examples bc some cases the guy rlly did pull a gun on the white guy but since he’s the one that died and is a poc ppl don’t look into it and think white guy kills poc means can’t be self defense, I’m talking more where it wasn’t even rlly considered a crime bc of the victims race) and punishments for perpetrators of sexual violence a lot of the time, yeah those should have been and/or should be harsher but that doesn’t mean this law is unfair it’s rlly not

and for @DarthPandaScare STOP CHANGING UR NAME FIRST OF ALL
second of all I know I already replied to you but
continuing with me agreeing you

its not like ussr or us was oppressing one another, it was not any fighting for freedom or independence or anything so there’s rlly no way where being a spy here would do anything good…
those are the understandable circumstances

if the enemy has a group of people they are against and you reveal who ones they didn’t notice are and/or where some are hiding yeah you’re not directly killing them but you are giving them the people they want to kill and causing their deaths

you may get 20 advanced new weapons that cause more damage than any before, and you’re not killing anyone yourself with those weapons but you’re selling them to ppl who intend to use them to kill others, yeah you’re contributing to deaths
that’s what these spies do when they’re not fighting for any one’s freedoms rights, etc, which again is not what ussr vs us was

 

[Ahsoka]

His sentencing makes sense

it was death penalty

he wanted life imprisonment

He was guilty of 15 counts of espionage or conspiracy to commit espionage

each one is worth life sentence, so just like with serial killers having multiple for multiple victims, bc again treason is punishable by death like I said, it makes sense, adds up just like that

He had no allegiance, connections, history etc was not coerced chose to approach and become a traitor of his own will

he exposed 4 people helping the US and caused deaths for three and political imprisonment for the other

death for treason which would’ve been a normal punishment for this guy too like I said

He sold classified documents about military weapons technologies from his country, their counterintelligence strategies, and strategies for nuclear war

He had no ties heritage conflicted loyalties with the other side and was not coerced completely free will for money

nuclear war

if ussr then / Russia now started a nuclear war and the US’s strategies for surviving it were all known to them, do you know how many deaths he would cause by that by giving that information? Tens of Millions no possibly billions

nuclear war would be extremely devastating

if they know all the strategies to prepare for nuclear war as well it would be disastrous, possible genocide level

There’s a reason why western countries including the us (when us and Russia combined have almost 90% of all nuclear weapons) are trying to quell China, India, and Pakistan in Asia before any of them use nuclear weapons against another Asian country over borders bc of the billions it would kill

and the us themselves are the only ones to have actually used nuclear weapons, on another Asian country, Japan, and it wiped out whole cities and had lasting effects for future generations and survivers (cancer, radiation, loss of limbs, etc)

and with that time period being the “second Cold War” and the main thing preventing the Soviet Union frm using its nuclear weapons was the Strategic Defense Initiative (prob what’s referred to as the strategies for nuclear war here) he rlly could’ve contributed to starting a nuclear war…

Yeah considering he was doing treason without any understandable reason and selling military secrets any country would’ve done anything similar and with the laws being the way they are against treason, more so selling secrets about weapons of mass destruction to one superpower from another superpower who are already with high tension that war might break out, as well as the defensive strategy that may be preventing it… yes it was a fair and deserved punishment from the country he was being a traitor too

considering laws and punishments for treason the fact he had no understandable reason (like let’s say he was half Russian that would be conflicted feelings, etc, he had nothing to do with Russia, no reason or strong feelings against the us making him side with ussr over us so US loses, etc, NOTHING), and the destruction the information he supplied couldve led to …

yes it’s understandable

serial killers kill 3 or more people by definition

he directly caused 3 deaths and couldve caused tens of millions and started a war that didn’t exist (since the nuclear war didn’t happen during Cold War, and so the deaths would rlly be his fault not just “war deaths” bc there was no war)

I am well aware nuclear war would be bad and that many could die if any country starts using their weapons, that’s rather obvious. I am also aware about the atomic bombs in Japan. I can’t say I understand how not having Russian heritage or whatever changes things, I wouldn’t imagine that someone with some sort of Russian heritage would be given a pass either, that would be ridiculous. As for understandable reason he and others not in his side stated that it was money and related to the fact that his family was kind of struggling before. I don’t see how that would change his sentencing but I just don’t see the conclusion about no understandable reason, I don’t think a FBI spy one day just decides it would be an awful lot of fun to sell information to a competing country.
I’ll assume for the billions estimate you’re assuming other countries will get involved? I was confused at first but I’m assuming that must be it because if it was just the US and USSR/Russia that would be some odd/impossible numbers.
I’m also curious if the reverse would bother you, if a spy from Russia sold info to the US about Russias nuclear stuff. By your reasoning it should, but I think most Americans would be fine with that swap.
All this aside I was more thinking about the reasoning given for the multiple sentences existing (that if one gets reversed there’s more) and how it would be a lot of reversals to reach that 15. It doesn’t bother me, give 60 for all I care. I don’t see any difference between those two numbers if you’re being realistic with a crime like this.

 

[Ahsoka]

This law is not unfair at all in terms of punishment but if you mean some white people getting away with racially motivated hate crime murder in the past (I’m not talking police officers btw I’m talking normal ppl, and don’t give examples bc some cases the guy rlly did pull a gun on the white guy but since he’s the one that died and is a poc ppl don’t look into it and think white guy kills poc means can’t be self defense, I’m talking more where it wasn’t even rlly considered a crime bc of the victims race) and punishments for perpetrators of sexual violence a lot of the time, yeah those should have been and/or should be harsher but that doesn’t mean this law is unfair it’s rlly not

and for @DarthPandaScare STOP CHANGING UR NAME FIRST OF ALL
second of all I know I already replied to you but
continuing with me agreeing you

its not like ussr or us was oppressing one another, it was not any fighting for freedom or independence or anything so there’s rlly no way where being a spy here would do anything good…
those are the understandable circumstances

if the enemy has a group of people they are against and you reveal who ones they didn’t notice are and/or where some are hiding yeah you’re not directly killing them but you are giving them the people they want to kill and causing their deaths

you may get 20 advanced new weapons that cause more damage than any before, and you’re not killing anyone yourself with those weapons but you’re selling them to ppl who intend to use them to kill others, yeah you’re contributing to deaths
that’s what these spies do when they’re not fighting for any one’s freedoms rights, etc, which again is not what ussr vs us was

I said compared to those laws. I didn’t say I think espionage is all great and peachy. It was about the differences in sentencing for terrible crimes just different types. I wasn’t specifically thinking of crimes that are exclusively racially motivated, my first thought was more about some of the stuff that happened related to WW2/the Holocaust. But I wasn’t thinking to make espionage a low level crime, rather I felt that the WW2/Holocaust ones weren’t severe enough in many cases.

 

[Ahsoka]

I'm kinda shocked at the 15 life sentences too. Thats not even throwing the book at him, it seems kind of pointless TBH.

You’d rather live the rest of your life in prison than die?

 

[litc]

I am well aware nuclear war would be bad and that many could die if any country starts using their weapons, that’s rather obvious. I am also aware about the atomic bombs in Japan. I can’t say I understand how not having Russian heritage or whatever changes things, I wouldn’t imagine that someone with some sort of Russian heritage would be given a pass either, that would be ridiculous. As for understandable reason he and others not in his side stated that it was money and related to the fact that his family was kind of struggling before. I don’t see how that would change his sentencing but I just don’t see the conclusion about no understandable reason, I don’t think a FBI spy one day just decides it would be an awful lot of fun to sell information to a competing country.
I’ll assume for the billions estimate you’re assuming other countries will get involved? I was confused at first but I’m assuming that must be it because if it was just the US and USSR/Russia that would be some odd/impossible numbers.
I’m also curious if the reverse would bother you, if a spy from Russia sold info to the US about Russias nuclear stuff. By your reasoning it should, but I think most Americans would be fine with that swap.
All this aside I was more thinking about the reasoning given for the multiple sentences existing (that if one gets reversed there’s more) and how it would be a lot of reversals to reach that 15. It doesn’t bother me, give 60 for all I care. I don’t see any difference between those two numbers if you’re being realistic with a crime like this.

No im saying they could’ve had a conflict of interest if he had ties to both countries but he had no reasonable motivation

I’m not saying being Russian would’ve made it right but it would’ve been like I see why he might have felt loyalty to them why he did this, etc, nothing like that

i mentioned India and Pakistan and China and I have family in that region so yeah ofc it’d be the same, regardless of which country does it

if you’re giving secrets of weapons of mass destruction to someone who’s prob going to use them and not to fight against or oppression or anything yeah I don’t see any reason id see it that way?

when I was little I wanted to be a soldier but then I realized in middle school … the whole point of war is to try to kill the other side … most wars are pointless … if you’re defending from attackers is one thing but some conflict that’s not one side oppressing another and the oppressed fighting back becoming a war? Most wars are not clear invader/oppressor/enemy/villain so it’s just people unnecessarily dying for a conflict that could have possibly been solved in another way (if it’s smth you’re saying but they got violent, again that is defending then not just a conflict)
The fact that the Cold War didn’t start an actual nuclear war shows it would’ve been one of the unnecessary wars so someone who contributed to starting that would’ve been extremely wrong even if the US won that unnecessary war and most deaths were Russians…
civilians aren’t the government anyway

so idk what you mean abt Russia vs us … us is not the worst country in the world in terms of actions or rights like people act no, but I don’t blindly support everything American cuz I was born here

it would be like the Japanese atomic bombs, killing innocent ppl who did nothing to America

I even criticized some things the US did against the British and hypocritical arguments they made in the revolutionary war publically in school and they were sort of fighting for “freedom”

I think most ppl would be mad if their country did smth unfair to them even tho they are a proud citizen or wtv

I don’t think struggling with money is ever an excuse for giving information that could many deaths and I don’t think you did do

the 15 is for 15 instances like for serial killers if one 1st degree would be 1 life sentence, if they had 15 victims then 15 1 per

 

[StirFriedPanda]

You’d rather live the rest of your life in prison than die?

I'd definitely rather die but i believe in something more after death. I suppose when you think this life is it maybe that's why he'd rather rot in prison. Some how he's hoping for some kind of redemption?

 

[litc]

I said compared to those laws. I didn’t say I think espionage is all great and peachy. It was about the differences in sentencing for terrible crimes just different types. I wasn’t specifically thinking of crimes that are exclusively racially motivated, my first thought was more about some of the stuff that happened related to WW2/the Holocaust. But I wasn’t thinking to make espionage a low level crime, rather I felt that the WW2/Holocaust ones weren’t severe enough in many cases.

Ah those are more global or political crimes than federal ones tho so you can’t compare the punishments bc they aren’t decided by the same body

 

[Ahsoka]

Ah those are more global or political crimes than federal ones tho so you can’t compare the punishments bc they aren’t decided by the same body

You can’t directly compare them but the US had some level of a say in both usually.

 

[Ahsoka]

I'd definitely rather die but i believe in something more after death. I suppose when you think this life is it maybe that's why he'd rather rot in prison. Some how he's hoping for some kind of redemption?

I don’t believe in anything after death which is why in that situation I’d rather die